Pankration

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Ave
Everyone is familiar with the Pankration, the brutal Olympic game that combined boxing and wrestling. Is it true that Spartans usually came out best in this game? I read that a long time ago and do not remember the source.

[Zenodoros]

If I recall correctly, Spartans weren't allowed to fight in the pankration, at least in the Olympics - as death was such a common result, it was seen as a waste of the soldier.

Though they practiced it at Sparta.

[Anonymous]

I don't know of any evidence that death was a common result of pankration bouts, even at Olympic level. What does seem to have been common, as a finisher, is breaking the opponent's fingers.

I can't recall, either, any evidence that the Spartans were consistent winners of pankration. There's a story ( or two!) of a famous Olympic pankration champion who finally died because he put his hands in a split tree-trunk and the wedges sprang out, trapping his hands and him, so that he starved to death where he was. He was not a Spartan. I've got a feeling that the one about Spartans not competing on the grounds that it was an unnecessary peace-time risk of a soldier's life, was raised in the same stable as this.

Speaking of stables, it is a peculiarity of horse-racing that centuries of careful breeding have not produced a champion race of horses. The greats are often born out of the direct line of "bloods". As they said of Phar Lapp, he wasn't bred, he was a freak (I still won't soon forgive his murderers, mind!). Similarly, the Spartans, despite their total dedication to the creation of fighters, were never able to produce a race that was consistently physically superior to the other Greeks, and, therefore, we do not find the lists of champions stuffed with the names of Spartans. It is actually possible to mythologise the Spartans and over-rate them. [Prepares for sky to fall on head, Zeus to hurl thunderbolts, Spartans fans to hurl e-mails, etc. etc.]

One famous Pankratiast was called Archimedes, I think, (but much too early to be the mathematician and inventor of that name). He wasn't a Spartan, either.

There is a forum for those interested in Pankration:- do a Search on Google.

[Hoplitesmores]

I remember reading that they were forbidden from participating in the pankration so as to not admit defeat in case they lost.

[hoplite14gr]

No initially they did not participate so that other migh not learn the exellence of their art. But it seems that they started participating after 4th century B.C.
Kind regards

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Similarly, the Spartans, despite their total dedication to the creation of fighters, were never able to produce a race that was consistently physically superior to the other Greeks,

Really? Will Durant would probably contradict you on that. I remember reading in one of his books that Spartans were indeed physically finer specimens than other Greeks. I don't remember if he quotes any sources for that but he has been known to make horrendous mistakes in his writings so I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

[Hoplitesmores]

I do recollect that Thebans were bigger more muscular and better
in physical combat.

[Anonymous]

Similarly, the Spartans, despite their total dedication to the creation of fighters, were never able to produce a race that was consistently physically superior to the other Greeks,

Really? Will Durant would probably contradict you on that. I remember reading in one of his books that Spartans were indeed physically finer specimens than other Greeks. I don't remember if he quotes any sources for that but he has been known to make horrendous mistakes in his writings so I think I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

Yes, I'm sorry, I haven't made it clear that I'm referring here to the fact that the Spartans never became sufficiently superior to win against freaks of nature produced by the other city-states. Thus, although the Spartans were probably stronger and fitter, as a group, than the men of other poleis, they could still find themselves over-matched by the physical prowess of an exceptional Athenian/Theban/Corinthian/whateverian

[hoplite14gr]

-"So your opponent was stronger Spartan!"
-"No just a better tackler"!
Plutarch - Laconian proverbs


Kind regards

[Hoplitesmores]

I would think that the spartan army would be built for endurance as that is mostly used in military operations.I would find their type of lifestyle and eating habits hard to make big muscled bodies.Not that size and strength are the only imporant things in pankration though Milon of Kroto was a giant of a man.

[Zenodoros]

I remember reading that they were forbidden from participating in the pankration so as to not admit defeat in case they lost.

Oops, yeah... that's what I was intending to say. :oops: Death in pankration wasn't 'common', but permenant physical injuries would have been.

[Hoplitesmores]

Boxing was much deadlier so to the point they thought of removing it.Though deaths in Pankration did occur it was considered much safer.Although something about an athlete dying in the hands of another when he pierced his insides with his finger in a hongkong like karate chop was brutal enough death for me.

[spartacus-033]

I read that spartans didn't compete in the olimpics becuse it forbid bitting and eye gougeing and the spartans didn't believe in holding back for any reason

[PMBardunias]

.I would find their type of lifestyle and eating habits hard to make big muscled bodies.

I remember a TV special about Gladiators a while back that used a chemical analysis on gladiators to determine that they ate mostly barley gruel and were big heavy men, not muscled like bodybuilders with low body fat.

The famous Spartan black broth would have been barley gruel with the addition of a kick of protein from the hog's blood. Add to that the meat brought in by hunting and Spartiates probably had a higher protein intake that the average upper class greek.

Somehwere there is a quote that Spartans did not want there citizens engaging in any contest where one "raises the finger" (submits) if I recall.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B said:

I remember a TV special about Gladiators a while back that used a chemical analysis on gladiators to determine that they ate mostly barley gruel and were big heavy men, not muscled like bodybuilders with low body fat.

Quite right ! Compare Sumo wrestlers today, who can, and do, wipe the floor with any other un-armed combatant, and look at the mosaics of gladiators who often show this type of build......