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Enemy horses as targets
#31
Sorry, me again. I know I already waffled on too long, but I just had to share these bits about the Battle of Aliwal in 1846 which just shows what highly-motivated cavalry can do, even if it defies all the rational arguments against it being possible. This is lifted from the Marquess of Anglesey's History of the British Cavalry, vol. 1 1816-1850 The 16th Lancers successfully attacked enemy cavalry, then infantry with artillery support in defensive positions. These infantry were European-trained and well disciplined.

The 3rd, it is said, wavered; but not so the 16th, which charged in fine stylw without them. Trooper Pearman saw them 'coming on at a trot, then a gallop. I took off my cap and hollered out...Such cutting and stabbing I never saw before or since'. Crashing into the mass of the enemy horse, the Lancers hunted the enemy towards the river. Bere then rallied his men for the return, only to find his way barred by Sikh infantry. These were part of the finest regular battalions in the Khalsa... They at once threw themselves into squares, or rather equilateral triangles, which were the Sikh equivalents [fewer vulnerable corners!]:
'We went at them', wrote a trooper in Bere's squadron, 'and on coming within 40 yards they gave us a volley, a ball from which struck the chain of my lance-cap just over the left cheek bone. They then threw away their muskets, and, taking their large shields, came at us sword in hand'. [How different to a shower of pila followed by gladii and scuta?]

Of this charge Corporal Cowan wrote that his troop
'moved on like a flash of lightning, clearing everything before us, guns, cavalry and infantry. As for myself, I went through cavalry and infantry squares repeatedly. At the first charge I dismounted two cavalry men, and on retiring we passed through a square of infantry, and I left three on the ground killed or wounded .... My comrade on my left, just as we cheered before charging, had his heart torn from his side by a cannon-ball, but my heart sickens at the recollection of what I witnessed that day. The killed and wounded in my squadron alone was 42.
After the first charge self-preservation was the grand thing, and the love of life made us look sharp, and their great numbers required all our vigilance.
Our lances seemed to paralyse them altogether, and you may be sure we did not give them time to recover themselves. There was no quarter given or taken. We did spare a good many at first, but the rascals afterwards took their preservers' lives, so we recieved the order to finish everyone with arms.'

.... Almost simultaneously with this charge, Captain Fyler's squadron, which, with Bere's, formed the left wing of the regiment, was ordered to attack another mass of Avatibile's infantry. This charge, too, was successful and Fyler joined Bere. Before he had done so the two remaining squadrons, which formed the right wing of the 16th were sent against
'a battalion of the enemy's infantry and a battery of 9 and 12-pounder guns....We had a splendid man for commanding officer, Major Rowland Smyth', wrote seargent Gould of C Troop.... '''Now'', said Major Smyth, ''I amgoing to give thw word to charge, three cheers for the Queen''. There was a terrific burst of cheering of cheering in reply and down we swept upon the guns. Very soon they were in our possession. A more exciting job followed. We had to charge a square of infantry. At them we went, the bullets flying around like a hailstorm. Right in front of us was a big sergeant, Harry Newsome. He was mounted on a grey charger, and with a shout of 'Hullo, boys, here goes for death or a commission'', forced his horse right over the fornt rank of kneeling men, bristling with bayonets. As Newsome dashed forward he leant over and grasped one of the enemy standards, but fell from his horse pierced by 19 bayonet wounds.
Into the gap made by newsome we dashed, but they made fearful havoc among us. When we got out on the other side of the square our troop had lost both lieutenants, the cornet, troop-sergeant-major, and two sergeants. I was the only sergeant left. Some of the men shouted, ''Bill, you've got command, they're all down.'' Back we went through the disorganised square, the Sikhs peppering us in all directions....We retired to our own line....'

Bere's squadron now made yet another assault against a square and broke it. Finally the whole regiment, supported by nearly all the rest of the cavalry present, charged triumphantly forward for the last time.



Just in case you are thinking these Sikhs were obviously a worthless, undisciplined rabble, there is this bit:

The fire of the disciplined Sikh infantry, wrote Lieutenant-Colonel Maude in 1903, was 'in the opinion of the survivors of the Peninsula and Waterloo..., both better delivered and better aimed than that of Napoleonic infantry... Even when broken, these men fought to the death as no other infantry, except the Russians at Zorndorf, [1758] have ever done before or since'.

Anyway, really must go and do that work now... except that it's now lunchtime here. Doesn't time fly...


Phil Sidnell
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#32
Quote:Phil you raise proof that the horses and calvary were trained to know that the foot soldiers would break away at the last moment

Just for the record, I don't think that was me that said that. Smile


Phil Sidnell
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#33
Quote:I assume these less disciplined lines of infantry have a banner saying " attack here?"

To repeat the relevant part of an eyewitness quote I used earlier:

'It is awful thing for infantry to see a body of cavalry riding at them full gallop. The men in square frequently begin to shuffle and so create some unsteadiness....The cavalry seeing this have an inducement for riding close up, and in all probability in getting into the square.'

A feint was one way to get a clue to which units might break. I know there is a really good ancient quote where one commander sees the wavering spear points of the enemy and knows his men can beat them - just can't find exactly where it is right now.


Phil
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#34
I don't know what all this fuss is about. All you have to do is watch Lord of the Rings, the return of the king and you'll see how easy it is to get Cavalry to leap into the air and land safely on lots of spear points 8)
MARCVS VLPIVS NERVA (aka Martin McAree)

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Legion Ireland - Roman Military Society of Ireland
Legionis XX Valeria Victrix Cohors VIII

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#35
To keep saying the cavalry could only succeed if they infantry panicked may be to miss the point that this is what the cavalry were trying to achieve and the infantry often did panic (as in the Arrian quote I cited earlier). The problem with your proposed experiment (which I have also often wished I could do) would be that a group of modern infantry reenactors would know that the enemy were not really trying to kill them (and are less likely to risk their precious pet horse than an ancient aristocrat with a string of them and a lot more at stake).
Quote:Not to keep going over and over and over this. yes Im sure there are hundreds of accounts of this happening and Im sure some were successful and others not. My point is unless teh front ranks disbaneded and fled such a move would be suicide.

Secondly, yes I agree that both sides of a modern day re encatment woudl know eachother arent going to kill eachother ( thankgod)...I'm coming from a horse mentality side...humans will do anything theyre told as we see day after day...horses?

my experiment is to train and then gallop at a line of shouting screaming , sword clanging group and see that even after training will horses confidenlly approach such a line or would they still begin to falter and slow...

I know that my own disciplined experienced horses can balk at a new venue, jump or situation so if horses minds havent changed ( as quoted) i woudl assume that even after training horses may still balk at the sight of a thousand strong line of enemy?

if yes, could a rider still make the horse approach, if yes how much force would it or not take.

I have seen maniac riders and horses do some weird stuff so Im sure it was the same back then.

I'd just like to see a modern day re enactment if possible.
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#36
ooops my quoting is back to front
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#37
So the eyewitness accounts from Aliwal were not convincing enough then?

I too would love to see such experiments. I have long wanted to do a proper research project (with a book and documentary as the end product ideally) testing various facets of ancient cavalry warfare. This was originally meant to be the basis of 'Warhorse', but various 'real life' factors forced me to settle for a more conventional approach. I even wrote to the Household Cavalry to see if I could 'borrow' a troop or two to try out wedge formation etc. No joy unfortunately.


In the meantime, I'm sure there must be some footage somewhere of mounted police charging mobs of shouting, missile throwing football hooligans or rioters. Probably the closest you are going to get.

Phil Sidnell
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#38
Quote:In the meantime, I'm sure there must be some footage somewhere of mounted police charging mobs of shouting, missile throwing football hooligans or rioters. Probably the closest you are going to get.
Sadly, the rioters wouldn't be trained to keep formation and repel the police horses with spears and javelins :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#39
Yes true Tarb, but most mobs that require police to charge them on horseback are the kind that usually don't mind hurting horses!

As long as there is a policeofficer to injure in the process, they will find a way!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Byron Angel
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#40
Good point Tarbicus and valid point Phil,

We do a little training with the Police Force horses, educational type stuff before they get their Police/riot training where the rigours sort the men from the boys. Obviously soem horses cope and some just are not suitable when pushed to get used to crowds, learn NOT to kick in crowded situations, used to being crowded in and pushed around.

The horses armour includes face masks protecting the front of the nose area and eyes, reins with chain in them so they can't be cut. even after this trainig many of the horses still get excited in riot situations but teh training keeps them controllable and obviously the experience and skill of their riders. But still, there have been many occasions where some of teh horses dont go forward, spin and turn and these are trained horses.

Many of these horses perform ceremonial parades as we have seen with eth British Mounted guards, and you often see horses jig jogging and getting excited. And this si just simple march down a road in front of a usually quiet crowd, clapping at worst!

jim is right, such examples arent tru e enough because no one is repelling them and secondly, not being run down. Rioters trun and run because theyre unarmed and confronting a police force is going to result in doing time.

An enemy protecting its land is going to maybe stand a liitle more resistance.

Yes your examples are convincing, but I simply cannot imagine and woudl love to see even feel it first hand what it must be like to gallop across a plain towards a mile long line of warriors clanging and shouting.

How we do it i dont know, the closest i could do is arrange a group of riders or even ask theh police guys if we could use them and their horses and have a group of people line up to basically take up the amount of space that a line of horses oinly see that line and no way out to either side, shouting and screaming etc and see whether the horses continue to push forward or begin to slow!

You know what I think Im going to call them now! Stay tuned!
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"let the die be cast "

(Stefano Rinaldo)
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#41
Excellent. Make sure you get it on film! (If I could work out how to add laudes, I would).

You guys are really getting me determined to try to revive my research project. I really wish I had discovered this site a few years ago. The usual response I get to my ideas is my family rolling their eyes up and saying 'there he goes again!'

Phil Sidnell
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#42
Quote:Yes true Tarb, but most mobs that require police to charge them on horseback are the kind that usually don't mind hurting horses!

As long as there is a policeofficer to injure in the process, they will find a way!
IIRC, every riot I've ever seen on the news that even involved police on foot saw the rioters retreat. Perhaps not fully occasionally, but at least to a safe distance where missiles can be thrown from. When the horses turn up it's even more so. Rioters don't carry shields, nor do they train together every day or even year. What you really need are riot police standing against riot police horse. Even army guys in riot gear against police horse (sets them up for a competition :wink: )
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#43
I'll have to dissagree with you the Jim :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#44
Hahaha we may be in luck!

I have just phoned a fellow rider who is the mounted police officer who trains teh young horses. He expressed that the police horses actually undergoe crowd training....ie they need crowds.

He said, the only issue with what we want to do is that the horses once they get used to THAT crowd, often because they repeat the training the horses do get used to THAT crowd and the racket its making.

He said, BUT if they were out marching and then were confronted by a crowd, he said without doubt some of the horses balk and tense up. But the riders push them forward and they travel forward. Unlike romans he said, we need our horses so when teh horse is at risk they tend to stand back and not get into situations where the horses can get hurt if can be prevented. He expressed he is sure this is different to a charge of calvary against...you guessed it....someone tryingh to repel them and kill them!

though he was concerned and said that teh only time they would charge a crowd is at worst the last resort! he said getting tsuck in a mob would be dangerous to horse and rider .... knives etc even swords he mentioned!

he said they rely on the crowd backing down and breaking up but if the crowd decided to stand their ground behind a barricade or had weapons to repel the horse, he said theres no way they would go in!

he finsihed off by saying, you find a crowd of ugly looking barbarians, he said you can have the next batch of trainee horses for the day!

Phil maybe its worth you appraoching your local mounted police if possible?

Anyone seen a group of out of work barbarians? Big Grin D
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"let the die be cast "

(Stefano Rinaldo)
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#45
Dont you just push teh + button on the avatar for laudes? Is this how you award them?
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(Stefano Rinaldo)
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