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Quote:Well as a I posted somewhere else Crusaders were no angels but why the devastation caused by Muslim armies from 700 to 1680 AD in Europe is conveniently omitted? Its a historical fact.
History has the problem of being "impartial" when seen from every angle.
Trying to suppress bad things is like giving excuses to those deranged people planning them in the future.
Kind regards
That hit's the nail square on the head!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Quote:M. Demetrius:3m3vt3ax Wrote:It was the Romans who first called Israel "Palestine", a derivative of the word "Phillistine" (Israel's enemy neighbors, see 1 & 2 Samuel, Joshua for details). They evidently did so to irritate the Israelis of their day, and to declare that Israel was utterly conquered.
Did they really do that to irritate the Jews? I've often heard this, and indeed Judaea was renamed Palestina after 135. I do not know if the motivation is recorded in any ancient source, but it sounds very, very plausible.
Quote:You can't speak of 'Israelis' for the Roman period, because that was not the name used
Actually, you can. The name Judaeans/Jews was used "to the outside" and Israel was used "to the inside". In other words, foreigners called the inhabitants "Judaeans", and speaking to others, the Jews called themselves "Judaeans"; however, between themselves, they called themselves "Israel". (Cf. the Magyars/Hungarians, Netherlands/Holland, Inuit/Eskimo.) The distinction is carefully made in Mark 15:
[quote]They nailed Jesus to a cross [...]. On it was a sign that told why he was nailed there. It read, “This is the King of the Jews.â€
Jona Lendering
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I'm surprised. Not by the renaming or the supposed reason, but that this conflict was still alive in the memories in 135. After all, the Israeli-Philistine conflict, one would suppose, had ended after the land had been repeated conquered by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Alexander and finally the Romans? Were there still Philistines who were recognisable as a separate cultural group? Philistine cities like Gaza? And, more importantly, still enough Jewish-Philistine rivalry? Or did the Romans actually know enough of the Jewish history and scriptures to know that the name would cause them to be hurt?
About Muslims and the holocaust, I think we can allow this very short explanation, but we do not recommend expanding the discussion further.
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Quote:I'm surprised. Not by the renaming or the supposed reason, but that this conflict was still alive in the memories in 135.
National memories can be very long. Was the reason Caesar's conquest of Gaul was enthusiastically received by the masses because it wreaked revenge for the Gallic sack of Rome centuries before?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:I'm surprised. Not by the renaming or the supposed reason, but that this conflict was still alive in the memories in 135.
The coastal strip had always been known as Palestina. E.g., Herodotus, the Alexander historians, Strabo. Historically, it was never Jewish, because Judah had never been more than the area surrounding Jerusalem. In the 130's BCE, the Hasmonaean dynasty added Joppa and the rest of the coast ( MAP), but it always retained a pagan look. The inhabitants appear to have called their country Palestine, just like the other conquests of the Hasmonaeans retained their old names (e.g., Galilee, Gaulanitis, Idumea). It was easy for Hadrian to select the name and stress that the coastal strip, and not Jerusalem, was the most important part of this area.
Jona Lendering
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Quote:The coastal strip had always been known as Palestina. E.g., Herodotus, the Alexander historians, Strabo. Historically, it was never Jewish, because Judah had never been more than the area surrounding Jerusalem. [..] It was easy for Hadrian to select the name and stress that the coastal strip, and not Jerusalem, was the most important part of this area.
That makes me think that renaming the province would not so much be to irritate the Jews, but more to stress anew geographical/political point of gravity.
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that you have relatives who suffered in 1933-1945 (which explains the hostility that Israelis settling in Holland sometimes encounter -
Sorry Jona this is utter nonsense....
The only reason Israelis are encountered with hostility is because of the way their government treats the people in occupied palestine.
its very easy to always get the muslim religio or the jewish one in the equasion........ and start getting extremely sensitive.......
however, being Jewish, or part of the jewish tribe does not nessecarily mean you are an Israel supporter.
nor is teaching about the holocaust.
Any teacher falling for the stupidity of not teaching about the holocaust in order to avoid discussion with either arab or muslim students should be dealt with severely in my opinion. (and i wont voice the exact form of Roman punishment, however they could see quite far in the distance.....)
The holocaust has NOTHING! to do with the arab-israeli, or muslim-jewish faith system.
it is a historical fact, not fiction.
I wholeheartedly wish the Romans were back in Iudaea, and all former occupied territories, not to put back harsh Roman order and discipline into the hearts of so many misguided souls, but rather to spread their TOLERANT attitude towards various religions!!
I know this can never happen.......
anyway, as long as the Arabs and Jews of this earth do not see, nor get taught they are of the SAME tribe (or genetic base-line) nothing will change.
Salaam Al Eikum is LITERALLY the same!! as Shalom El Eish'em.
Allah is Jaweh, and both are the same god......
(wether or not my own Roman gods agree with this fact or not)
no peace will ever come to that region if the intolerant attitudes towards various religions continue to exist.......
I for one have had it with the entire lot of them, and this modern age for that matter
anyone denying the holocaust or denying what the SS and Nazis did during WWII should be taught a lesson.......
BTW......
a friend of mine sent me a modern day Romanesque solution for the entire middle eastern problem.......
(sorry for the lost antiquities spread about the place.....)
![[Image: nukem.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/IMPERIALCOMMAND/nukem.jpg)
Not that i fully agree with this solution.........mind you !!!!!!! :lol:
it is meant as a sarcastic and cynical joke.... however if the situation deteriorates we could all experience the fallout..........
now where is that bloody asteroid................
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
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hahahaha...well said Henk. Rough, edgy and brash as usual, but I agree.
Nice map...that reminds me of the one I saw where the middle east was a giant parking lot of asphalt.
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Quote:I wholeheartedly wish the Romans were back in Iudaea, and all former occupied territories, not to put back harsh Roman order and discipline into the hearts of so many misguided souls, but rather to spread their TOLERANT attitude towards various religions!!
Ah, Roman tolerance - the old myth lives on :roll:
~Theo
Jaime
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Quote:Ah, Roman tolerance - the old myth lives on :roll:
~Theo
As long as they pay their tribute, taxes, and pay hommage to the emperor,
whats the matter? :lol: :lol: :lol:
M.VIB.M.
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Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
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Quote:MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS:b5zhykmq Wrote:I wholeheartedly wish the Romans were back in Iudaea, and all former occupied territories, not to put back harsh Roman order and discipline into the hearts of so many misguided souls, but rather to spread their TOLERANT attitude towards various religions!!
Ah, Roman tolerance - the old myth lives on :roll: Yep! The Ottoman Turks did a far better job where religious tolerance in the Middle East was concerned. :wink: Until they were kicked out in WWI, that is, and the shit hit the fan. Israel, the Armenians, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.,....
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Greece......? True, they managed a few years earlier!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Quote:MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS wrote:
I wholeheartedly wish the Romans were back in Iudaea, and all former occupied territories, not to put back harsh Roman order and discipline into the hearts of so many misguided souls, but rather to spread their TOLERANT attitude towards various religions!!
Ah, Roman tolerance - the old myth lives on
Yeah, Roman tolerance for non-Roman religious beliefa played well in the 1st Century Christian Church, now didn't it?
Roman laws would allow other religions, as long as those religions recognized the divinity of the Emperor, which naturally, no monotheist would do.
M. Demetrius Abicio
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That was due to the intolerance of christians for other religions was it not?
I could be wrong there!
:oops: sorry, missed the bottom of your post there!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Watch the religion and politics boys!
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