What are the "Milites II Flavia" from Worms?

[Robert Vermaat]

Alexander Demandt, Die Spätantike; 2nd, completely revised Ed. München 2007; --- brandnew!

Is that a revised edition of the first book with all the notes about the sources:
Demandt, Alexander (1989): Die Spätantike. Römische Geschichte von Diocletian bis Justinian 284 – 565 n. Chr., handbuch der Altertumswissenschaft III.6, (München).

Or a revised edition of the second book - without these notes:
Demandt, Alexander (1998): Geschichte der Spätantike. Das Römische Reich von Diocletian bis Justinian 284 – 565 n. Chr., (München).

In case of the latter, I wouldn't bother (I did and regretted it), and buy the Cambridge History series instead.

[Simplex]

Hi Robert V.,
rest assured, get a grip on your wallet: IT'S THE BIG 'UN ! 8)
http://rsw.beck.de/rsw/shop/default.asp ... m=LSW.2140

Now: release Date 15th of May 2007: ain't that BRANDNEW ?! :wink:

Greetings

Siggi K.

[Roy]

Found this on wikipedia ( :oops: ):
The Vangiones appear first in history as an ancient Germanic tribe of unknown provenience. They threw in their lot with Ariovistus in his bid of 58 BC to invade Gaul through the Doubs river valley and lost to Julius Caesar in a battle probably near Belfort. After some Celts evacuated the region in fear of the Suebi the Vangiones, who had made a Roman peace, were allowed to settle among the Mediomatrici in northern Alsace. (Metz however is now in Lorraine). They gradually assumed control of the Celtic city of Burbetomagus, later Worms.

The emperor, Augustus, cultivated them as allies, intending to invade Germany through the region between the Rhine and the Danube. He had Drusus place two forts among the Vangiones, castrum Moguntiacum (13 BCE, later Mainz) and Augusta Vangionum (14 BCE) at Worms. From there troops of the Vangiones were inducted into the Roman army. When he changed his mind after the Battle of Teutoburg Forest, the Vangiones were used for garrison duty on the far-flung Scottish frontier in Britain.



I asked for their source on the article's discussion page, now I just hope someone reads it :?

[Roy]

[url:30cpxomm]http://www.ancientlibrary.com/gazetteer/0062.html[/url]
From the Classical Gazetteer by William Hazlitt (1851) — a dictionary of some 14,000 ancient Greek and Roman places. P.60

Augusta, I. a town of Cilicia Campestris, in Bryelice Regio. II. a town of the Hernici, Latium, on Anio fl., below Sublaqueum. III. of Gallia Cispadana, bet. Butrium (11) and SagisadPadum(12). Salle di Agosta. IV. Ausciorum, prius Elimberris, postea Ausci, capital of the Ausci, Novem Popu-lana, s. of Lactora. Auch. V. C^sarea, Tarraconensis, vide Ciesar Augusta. VI. Emerita, a town of the Vettones, Lusita-nia, on the Anas, below Metellinum. Ap­pointed a colony of military pensioners (Emeriti) by Augustus. A colonia and pro-prsetorial seat. Merida. VII. Gemella, Bsetica, videTucci. VIII. Nemetum, vide Noviomagus. IX. Nova, a town of Tar­raconensis, vide Augustobriga. X. of the Vangiones, Germania, on Hadriani Vallum, E.n.e. of Noviomagus. XI. Pretoria, a town of the Burideenses, Dacia, s.w. of Pirum. A prsetorian colony of Augustus. Cronstadt; Brasson. XII. capital of the Salassi, Gallia Cisalpina, on Duria Major fl., L., bet. Arebrigium (25) and Vitricium (25), on Via Aurelia. Founded by Au­gustus, on the site of the camp of Terentius Varro. Aosta. XIII. Rauracorum, postea Rauraci, capital of the Rauraci, Max­ima Sequanorum, on the Rhine, bet. Basilea (6) and Sanctio. A colonia of Augustus. Augst ; Kayser. XIV. Suessionum (Noviodunum?),/jos/ea Suessiones, capital of the Suessiones, Belgica II., on Axona fi., bet. Bibe and Noviomagus, N.w. of Duro-cortonum. Soissons. XV. Taurinorum, prius Taurasia, capital of the Taurini, Liguria, on Padus fl., bet. Ad Octavum (8) and Ad Decimum (10), on Via Aurelia. Acolonia. Torino; Turin. XVI. Tiberii, Vindelicia, i. q. Reginum. XVII. Treve-Rorum, postea Treveri, capital of the Tre-veri, Belgica I., on Mosella fl., N.e. of Andethanna. A colonia of Augustus. The residence of several oj the Roman empe­rors, and denominated by Ausonius the second metropolis of the empire. Trier ; Treves. XVIII. of the Trieastini, Gallia Viennensis, on Druna fl., R., bet. Dea Vocontiorum (23) and Valentia (22). Aousl en Diois. XIX. Trixobantum, i. q. Londinium. XX. Ulpia trajana, i. q. Sarmizegethus. XXI. Vagiennorum, postea Bagienna, Baienna, capital of the Vagienni, Liguria, s. of Pollentia. Bane. XXII. Veroman-Duorum, capital of the Veroraandui, Bel-gica II., on Samara fl., near its source, bet. Camaracum (27) and Contra-Aginnum (19J). St. Quentin. XXIII. Vindeli-Corum, capital of the Licates, Vindelicia, on Licusfl., near its junction with Vindo fl. A colonia of Augustus, B.c. 12. Augsburg.

(Hadriani Vallum refers to the wall built by Hadrian in Germania, not the one in Britannia)

The Noviomagus mentioned would be Noviomagus Nemetum (Neumagen-Dhron). Worms indeed lies East-North-East from that city.

Augusta of the Vangiones would be Augusta Vangionum in Latin.
Might be Worms, or another minor city or fort in the territory of the Vangiones :?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Robert V.,
rest assured, get a grip on your wallet: IT'S THE BIG 'UN ! 8)
http://rsw.beck.de/rsw/shop/default.asp ... m=LSW.2140
Now: release Date 15th of May 2007: ain't that BRANDNEW ?! :wink:

I believe you're right, but I sure hope someone buys it first, because I don't want to step in that trap again....

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sorry to be a damp squib here, but, any photo's of the helmet mentioned at the start of the post.....?

[Roy]

I asked for their source on the article's discussion page, now I just hope someone reads it

I discussed the subject with the author of that article, and after some research, this is his conclusion:

I got my information from Hazlett's Gazeteer and also Orbis Latinus. I should have known though when neither one of them cited any ancient sources that something was wrong. I checked the unabridged Latin dictionary and they just gave up: there are so many Augusta's that they didn't want to list them all. But all the dictionaries I have tell the same story: they mention a theoretical augusta Vangionum which would mean the Augustan colony of the Vangiones, but no one says at all there is any mention of such a colony in the ancient sources. I searched all the ancient sources I could find. No trace. I searched the inscriptions even. No deal. So I formulated the conclusion that I put in the article. It seems unlikely that such an important city was NOT a colonia and the printed word may very well have reflected a tradition known at Worms. Our only other alternative is to quetch about those awful Worms liars as many do. I don't like that one because Orbis Latinus is actually a source albeit a late one.

[Simplex]

Good morning (so to speak :wink: ),
seems we're now gettin' somewhere.
1. Hi Robert,
..sincerely wish I could buy me that 2nd Ed, of Demandt right now, ..but ...
...amongst other reasons of why I'm not buying that, there are these books that natuspardo mentioned above. ...and of course the newer publications about late roman Worms ! (First things first :wink: )
2. Hi GajusMarcus,
...I faintly remember having seen pictures of that Worms helmet amongst other late roman helmets in this very Forum.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... lmet+worms
.....probably in other places here too.
3. Hi Roy,
the deeper we dig , the better we get, right ?

vide Augustobriga. X. of the Vangiones, Germania, on Hadriani Vallum, E.n.e. of Noviomagus. XI. Pretoria, a town of the Burideenses, Dacia, s.w. of Pirum. A prsetorian colony of Augustus. Cronstadt; Brasson. XII. capital of .....................................................................
.............................................The Noviomagus mentioned would be Noviomagus Nemetum (Neumagen-Dhron). Worms indeed lies East-North-East from that city.

Whereas I see your point with Augusta Vangionum, I still have my reservations concerning scientific sources from the 19. cent.
Throughout my life I've read a lot of books from this era, and some of the finding/theses there will nowadays probably be considered as "strange" -- at mildest. But: To leave away parts of a name/title that were customary in those times makes sense at least ( but not only) in my eyes.
Additionally we're encountering problems with finds/papers/archives that have been lost during/after WW II. So who can tell what got lost ??
But :wink: , there are several roman towns/cities by the name of noviomagus (in the areas that used to be populated by Gauls), the first one that comes to my mind spontaneously is Noviomagus Treverorum nowadays Neumagen-Drohn not too far away from Trier/Augusta Treverorum, some 120 km northwest of Worms, and another one mostly called just Noviomagus (quite seldom referred to as Noviomagus Nemetorum) or during the Late Empire, Nemetae, lies 40 km straight to the south. (Bernhardt -- in "Die Römer in Rheinland-Pfalz", Stuttgart 1990; p. 558) translates that name with "Neufeld"/"Newfield".)
And there may still be some more.
In general I think I should get hands on newer publications about roman Worms as soon as possible. I'll let you know, when I'm "ready".
But for now it's "goodnight y'all".
Greetings
Siggi K.

[Jona Lendering]

any photo's of the helmet mentioned at the start of the post.....?

Yep, here are three photos, made by my friend Marco, while we were on our way to Augsburg:


Perhaps Jurjen or Jasper, who were with us, have better ones.

[Praefectusclassis]

I do. It's in the helmet database: Worms Intercisa

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks Jona, Jasper, that is what I was meaning!

Thanks anyway Siggi, I should have said of the original, as I have seen many pictures of Deepeekas version! :wink:

[Simplex]

Hi there ......
No, I'm not talking 'bout maggots, vermins and the likes, but about the Milites II Flaviae ! :wink:
While visiting the Museum im Andreasstift in Worms some weeks ago, I happened to run into Dr. Mathilde Grünewald in person literally whilst reading a sign saying "Fortress after 370 n. Chr" :o . You bet if I took the chance to ask her if she got time to answer me a question or two.
What touches our subject here is:
---There is no evidence as yet that the late-roman fortess was built well before 370 A.D. . It was part of the Valentinian programme that brought us Alta Ripa (Altrip), Cruciniacum (Bad Kreuznach) and Alteium (Alzey) and a lot of Burgi (Trebur-Astheim, Hamm, Eich, Zullestein, Mannheim-Windberg; Mannheim-Neckarau; Altrip-Alterswörth; Ladenburg) in that area.
--- There is also no hard evidence that military units seem to have permanently garrisoned center-town before that time, too.
--- That would strongly suggest that the M.S.F. may have been established not before the times of Valentinian, and I know of now proof against that case yet (... and the Eichfelder-Website does not deliver any hard evidence against it either.).
If this unit was named so because it was culled from a Limitanei-/Comitatus- or Pseudo-Comitatus-unit ( and if so, from which ? :? idea: ) remains to be researched. 8)
Greez & Goodnight

Siggi K.

[Robert Vermaat]

The name sounds early - they could have been an older unit transferred to Worms?

[L C Cinna]

The name sounds early - they could have been an older unit transferred to Worms?

Yes, Constantinian imho,

or maybe even raised under Constantin's father and later transferred to Worms. :?:

[Simplex]

Dear Robert, dear Michael

The name sounds early - they could have been an older unit transferred to Worms?

There is nearly no continuity of military units beyond the third quarter of the 3rd century in the western part of the Roman Empire.
Like I said earlier, only a few units on the danubian frontier seem to have survived through this time. It is without a doubt that a Legio II Flavia
established under Vespasian has got nothing to do with a unit Legio II Flavia raised under Caesar Gajus Flavius Valerius Constantius/Caesar Flavius Constantinus/Flavius Claudius Constantinus -- Constantinus II/Flavius Julius Constantius -- Constnatius II/Flavius Julius Constans -- Constans/Flavius Julianus (Apostata)/Flavius Valentinianus -- Valentinis I/ Flavius Constans -- Constans.
(So why am I listing all these names ? I'm just trying to show a part of the pitfalls that we are subjected to when dealing with that issue --
missing parts of the notitia dignitatum, misspellings etc. in it nonwithstanding.)
A legion with the name Flavia in it therefore is likely NOT to have been raised/established/culled before the times when Constantius "Chlorus" had the power/opportunity to do so. (That is : by the end of the 3rd Century.)
And so any other unit bearing that "Flavia/Flaviae" could hardly have been established before that, right ?!

Yes, Constantinian imho, or maybe even raised under Constantin's father and later transferred to Worms.

Not improbable, but .....
Like I said: there's no hard evidence of a late roman fortification in the center of Worms before Valentinian, let alone a PERMANENT garrisoning
of troop bodies at that time. It may have been so, but the findings to state the cause are meagre to say the least.
(And that's how I understood Dr. Grünewald's answer to my questions)
A paper from the Stadtarchiv Worms by Margit Rinker-Olbrisch
[url:3vu15h08]http://www.worms.de/downloads/Chronik.pdf[/url] gives a different point of view, but opinions like these are based on evidence/presumptions of the 19th century which have been rendered obsolete by now.
By the way: In the catalogue "Attila & The Huns" , Dr. Bernhard from the Museum in Speyer in a way (page 121) doubts Dr. Grünewald's assumption, that parts of the medieval city-walls behind the Dome (westward) are basically of Roman origin. Well, if I understood Dr. Grünewald right, she was referring to a part of the wall on the back of the Heylshof, which, lies more northwest to the dome than exactly westward, although be it for only about 50 metres or so. So it took for it and had a loose scrutiny of that place: The outer shell of this piece of wall is in a bad shape or, well, more completely kocked-off, with lots of medieval or later modifications. But we see what you would call "opus caementicium" in a classic shape with a band of tiles running parallel to the ground about in 10-12 feet distance.
Do we have a roman fortress/city-Wall here ?
I think: yes.
And since it became common opinion amongst archaelogists nowadays that Worms never had city-walls completely identical to the course of the first medieval city-wall let alone a city-wall like Wimpfen/Xanten or comparable cities (A complete "enceinte" from about 180 AD on !), this
part of wall has to be the western counterpart to the eastern fortresswall of Worms found in the "Bauhofgasse".
Nearly all of the (stone) roman fortifications south of Mainz and north of
Strassbourg seem to have been build under the reign of Valentinian, and there is no evidence that in peculiar Worms should be an exception to that rule.
Equally probable therefore, at least to my eyes, is the assumption, that the "M.S.F" as core unit of that garrison came with the fortress.
Under Valentinian, that is.
So I think we should put this discussion to sleep again "until futher new evidence" of which I will keep you informed as soon as I get hold of it.
(I'm still looking for an essay that deals with the establishment of late roman military units in a way we could use it here. I'll be keepin' an eye on that too. Well, and just in case somebody else on this forum got some news for us here .......)
Greez

Siggi K.