Denying Thermopylae - taken from the Newsfeed section

[Mythos_Ruler]

Also, IMHO, the shipwrecks would have been carried out to sea by the tides. Wasn't there an account of the wrecks of the battle washing ashore further down the coastline (perhaps I just imagined this last bit)? In the accounts, there was a tide that swelled at the proper time of day that sent the Persian ships into the bay of Salamis in a disorganized manner. Wouldn't the obverse of this same tide take the wrecks out to sea?

[Hoplitesmores]

There is no scepticism in Iran other than an overactive propaganda machine intented mostly on internal consumption and minimal impressions abroad.Other then herodotus not being an eye witness even if we had eye witnesses to any of these events they would all describe a different variable story as it usually happens even now. We know from archaeology the occurence of certain events so we are left to wonder just how cool they were really?

[Tarbicus]

Wouldn't the obverse of this same tide take the wrecks out to sea?

Given the movement of the coastline outwards, is it also possible any detritus is simply buried underwater beneath the new soil?

[Et tu brute]

I find this bit rather ridiculous:
"Today, no other country resembles ancient Persia as closely as does the United States. If any country should sympathize with, rather than celebrate, Persia's quagmire in Greece, it is the United States. Few events in history mirror America's war on terror as closely as Persia's war on Greece."

Ridiculous? Calm down Dave, and look at it from the point of the ancient Persians: to them this was also a just war against agressors (the Greeks who in their opinion had meddled in Persian afairs). Same as the modern point of view of Americans against war on terror. That many do not agree with that view and see the Persians as agressors is, also, mirrored today in many parts of the world.
The Persian empire can also be compared to the modern superpowers.

No, not modern politics, but comparing times and views.

Not meaning to be rude by any measure. but I don't think I need to calm down, maybe I wasn't really being unbiased abpout that particular part, but I find the whole article to be very uncredible.

[Hoplitesmores]

Iranians writing articles relating to ancient times constantly use sources subjectively presenting them as credible when it suits their point of view and tottaly uncredible when it doesnt.They impose modern political interests on their judgement of history.When a Persian is presented as a great man the greek historians are right on the money and when another persian is presented as an unsavioury charakter the greeks must be wrong? Nomatter what the writer thinks Herodotus in my view in Polymnia presents the Persians and Xerxes as a Great Empire with all the negatives and positives it inherits.And it is the Greeks of course view as Herodotus is one but we consider him a Persophile.

[Narukami]

Martin Moser has posted an interesting link (in References & Reviews) about finding shipwrecks in the Med.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=15588

The Actium shipwrecks. In 31 BC the navy of Cleopatra and Anthony clashed against Octavian off the Greek coast. Hundreds of warships were sunk in a gigantic sea battle. So far none has been located. But the remains are waiting there someplace.

This is interesting as we do have eyewitness reports of this battle and there is (I assume) little dispute that is actually took place. If we are having trouble finding the wrecks from this battle is it any surprise that we have found little from Salamis?

Perhaps more time and better technology will give us the answers we seek.

Narukami

[floofthegoof]

When all you have is an old, old story and some arrowheads, then it's all you have. Disputing the accuracy of your sole surviving source is kindof pointless I believe because, in the absence of everything else, the story is the only thing that really matters. It doesn't matter if it's true, it only matters that somebody wrote a story, and the story survives. Maybe that's confusing. I'll try to say it another way.

Herodotus' story is 100% accurate in regards to what the Greeks believed to be their history. Therefore, the importance of the story is beyond dispute. Even if there was some way to get all the facts about the actual events, and if those facts disagreed with H. in every particular, we would *still* need The Histories wouldn't we?

If someone finds more evidence about history, certainly we all want to hear about it, but simply casting doubt according what one believes is plausible does nothing to increase our knowledge. Show me your evidence, and if you have none, then just sit back and enjoy the story for what it is.

[Et tu brute]

Iranians writing articles relating to ancient times constantly use sources subjectively presenting them as credible when it suits their point of view and tottaly uncredible when it doesnt.They impose modern political interests on their judgement of history.When a Persian is presented as a great man the greek historians are right on the money and when another persian is presented as an unsavioury charakter the greeks must be wrong? Nomatter what the writer thinks Herodotus in my view in Polymnia presents the Persians and Xerxes as a Great Empire with all the negatives and positives it inherits.And it is the Greeks of course view as Herodotus is one but we consider him a Persophile.

Couldn't have put it better myself

[Robert Vermaat]

This is interesting as we do have eyewitness reports of this battle and there is (I assume) little dispute that is actually took place. If we are having trouble finding the wrecks from this battle is it any surprise that we have found little from Salamis?

I once saw a documentary about Bob ballard discovering a near-complete ancient wreck in the Black Sea. I recall something about this only being posssible at that place because conditions prohibited the wood being eaten by sea-life. Most of the time, wrecks found are freighters because we find the cargo. maybe warships had much less non-perishable material on board (save the ram)?

[Robert Vermaat]

Not meaning to be rude by any measure. but I don't think I need to calm down, maybe I wasn't really being unbiased abpout that particular part, but I find the whole article to be very uncredible.

Fine by me :wink: everybody is entitled to their own views of course.

Herodotus in my view in Polymnia presents the Persians and Xerxes as a Great Empire with all the negatives and positives it inherits.And it is the Greeks of course view as Herodotus is one but we consider him a Persophile.

I agree with that.

[hoplite14gr]

Philip Haithornwight wrote in the "Napoleonic Sourcebook" that unless their armory was blown up wooden vessels did not sink.
As I posted before floating wrecks had value. Even as source of wood for repairs or fire wood. Sank wrecks were a loss.
Greeks managed to recover most of their dead in Salamis.
Descrptions of their graves and other monuments come from T. Vernire and S.Pole in 1845. More detailed work from E. Vanderpool in 1966.
As for the enemy dead marine life and torrent can make it hard to find evidence. Plus near a Naval base you need to have God as your relative to be allowed to dive there.
Kind regards

[Idomeneas]

Philip Haithornwight wrote in the "Napoleonic Sourcebook" that unless their armory was blown up wooden vessels did not sink.
As I posted before floating wrecks had value. Even as source of wood for repairs or fire wood. Sank wrecks were a loss.
Greeks managed to recover most of their dead in Salamis.
Descrptions of their graves and other monuments come from T. Vernire and S.Pole in 1845. More detailed work from E. Vanderpool in 1966.
As for the enemy dead marine life and torrent can make it hard to find evidence. Plus near a Naval base you need to have God as your relative to be allowed to dive there.
Kind regards

better as father :lol: :lol:
Its a pity though that the navy doesnt do something.

[Et tu brute]

Not meaning to be rude by any measure. but I don't think I need to calm down, maybe I wasn't really being unbiased abpout that particular part, but I find the whole article to be very uncredible.

Fine by me :wink: everybody is entitled to their own views of course.

Absolutely, just didn't want to sound rude

[Arthes]

As an interesting aside.....'300' has broken the Box Office records in the United Arab Emirates..... modern Persia's next door neighbours....

[Robert Vermaat]

the United Arab Emirates..... modern Persia's next door neighbours....

No love lost between them... :?