Denying Thermopylae - taken from the Newsfeed section

[Hoplitesmores]

I think that there should be a thread "historical interpretations" in Modern Iran and so on ...but its political so forget it.I also dont get why they are so worked up about ancient greece and seem to be pissed about something that happened 2500 years ago.Iranians i talk to adress me as if i killed his mother or something.Its ancient history for gods sake litelarely! And anyways they were bent on conquering everyone did they expect all nations to surrender because it would suit them and not exact vengeance as Alexander did for the whole of Greece?

I have had the utmost respect for Persia through the ancient writers and modern greek schooling and i thought we would have a closer relationship or view regarding the past since we have lots of common historical backround even if its filled with wars.I guess this is not the case.

[Robert Vermaat]

I also dont get why they are so worked up about ancient greece and seem to be pissed about something that happened 2500 years ago.Iranians i talk to adress me as if i killed his mother or something

Ehhh.. have you note the emotions at this very forum when someone suggested something about some battles being 'denied' or something said about Spartes, etc.?

I think it was you who used words like 'blasphemy'? I guess the Iranians who react to you like that are feeling exactly the same as you do about ancient history!

Actually, I think you have found common ground there! No I'm serious, don't you agree that all this hubris can actually make people (re-)think stuff and bring them closer together?

[Hoplitesmores]

Thats true! but they react on this regarding to the ancient event and i react to this regarding the modern reaction.I never claimed that persians were evil or anything they like to claim in their articles today.In their articles use epithetes and metaphores they use from modern political views.History is just fine but documentaries,movies,articles in the modern world and how they abuse it isnt.Remember when i saw 300 i said that Persians have every right to be angry and so should we greeks.Its about the modern view i am angry and not the ancient one.Its not about 2500 years ago but 2 days ago.

[Hoplitesmores]

I ve changed some stuff in the article so we can have a laugh and another perspective.


According to Polybius, thousands of greeks were killed at Pydna. Where are the remains of these warriors? Of course, not all corpses are always salvaged, either because the exact site is indeterminate, or because a single corpse is being sought. The location that is given by Polybius is a relatively precise location, and is not in a desolate or extremely deep part of an mountain. It is close to land, and not too remote. So what has been found at the site? Not much. Apart from an occasional spearhead or two from the ancient world, the vast graveyard of hoplites one expects to find there is notably absent, even with today's complex item salvage technologies.

How about Pydna? What has been recovered there? Apart from some greek spearheads, not much else. Again, considering the very specific site of battle and mountainous terrain that allows for only a small strip of flat land, the search area is relatively small. Furthermore, it is unlikely that it would conceal the following from the prying eyes of modern archaeologists:

"At this place, there is a large lacuna, in which Livy must have described how the skirmish increased in seriousness. One contingent of Roman allies, the Paelignians, suffered heavily. King Perseus now ordered his army to prepare for battle. The Romans were already prepared."

Twenty thousand greeks died at Pydna, of which nineteen thousand were buried in mass graves at that very site by Cornelius , according to Polybius. There are supposedly mass graves of 19,000 dead warriors there, somewhere in that narrow mountain pass. Archaeologists have been able to find a few arrowheads from that incident, but the colossal cemetery has somehow managed to elude discovery.

The conspicuous absence of thousands of dead and the mass graves of 19,000 dead greek warriors sheds serious doubt not just on the details of Polybius' story, but upon its entire foundation.

There you have it Pydna never happened! The roman empire didnt exist and we are in the Matrix.

[Arthes]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
It's true though.....most of the graves that we find...are in graveyards...lol
That brings to mind seeing the local newspaper's board headlines a while back....
'Body found in cemetery' :? lol: :lol:
(they meant a live body of course ... well, you know what I mean... :roll: )

[Hoplitesmores]

What i wrote makes as much sense as what the iranian guy wrote.None at all.
:?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, I have seen many stunning, blond haired, blue eyes greeks....
Also have a cousin who is almost black when he is really tanned....
also seen greeks with red hair..........

[MeinPanzer]

Yes, I have seen many stunning, blond haired, blue eyes greeks....
Also have a cousin who is almost black when he is really tanned....
also seen greeks with red hair..........

There has been so much genetic admixture between the Classical period and now that you can't judge the physical appearance of the ancient Greeks on todays Greeks.

[Hoplitesmores]

I dont know where you guys get this only blonde ancient greeks image , perhaps i am mistaken.But spartans due to their exposure to the sun would be red-skinned from an age and above like an indian and the same goes for the rest of the greeks or mediterranean people.

[Arthes]

The wall paintings that survive and painted pottery show a mixture.
Reddish hair, brown hair, pale and darker hued skin and the famous 'black' Achilles...although I think that was more to do with the art form than his actual skin colour aka heavily tanned.
I hope not to get my head bitten off :wink: but would hazard from the art that the Macedonians and Northern Greeks had fairer hair and skin as did some further south. The indigenous peoples of the Peloponnese such as the luckless Helots were probably dark haired and tanned...as were the Athenians - dark haired that is, maybe not so tanned except for the Hoplites and farmers.
The Minoans were black haired and brown or grey eyed, some frescoes show them as heavily tanned, others as having white skin, this is mainly women, but they would have spent a lot more time indoors.
Some of the Mycenaens were fair haired, I think I am correct in saying..
On growing up I was always led to believe that the Greek Gods and Goddesses were fair haired, aside from Ares, I think it was, as he was the God of war. Achilles and Alexander were fair haired too...!
Heroes are nearly always fair (or reddish) haired in the Northern cultures...!

[Idomeneas]

look we cannot generalize. There are some basic characteristics but from that point nothing is fixed. For example Most Greeks have brown eyes and hair, body and facial hair and when exposed to sun even if they are very white they turn black instead of pink as most north europeans do.
I believe that in ancient times happened mostly what happens today. Light color hair and eyes people are rare so they are considered special and even beautifull just for it. Heroes and Gods most of the times appear with blond hair because not many people had them. Also what we consider blond (and i mean the natural) is a golden brown hue. The platinum color many northeners have simply does not exist in any Greek.

In this point i would like to comment something i observed in your post Arthes that gives me the chance to see it as case study, please dont take it personally. You reffer to Macedonians and Northern Greeks as if they are seperate groups. So i conclude and correct me if im wrong that you consider Macedonians non Greek as many other people tend to do latelly. Isnt that ironic in a thread that we laugh about the BS somebody wrote about thermopylae? We came to the point to burry the whole eastern scholarship as fanatics. And i dont say that some of these people are willing to say anything to support a case out of nowhere. But wouldnt this rule be applied to all those that make up history out of thin air? The whole ''non greek macedonians'' issue errupted in a similar way of these persian ''studies'', we ignored it due to political issues back then and later as absurb, but it worked its way into so many books and sites that some people take it for granted. If they will be asked to present the evidences and findings that lead them to those conclusions i think the first thing they will think is ''but everybody says so''. So within this logic some day Thermopylae and salamis wont exist cause ''everybody says and writes so'' :wink:

Again i say dont take it personally i just used your post as example

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I believe that in ancient times happened mostly what happens today. Light color hair and eyes people are rare so they are considered special and even beautifull just for it.

I am moving to Greece. As soon as possible. 8)

Ralph I.

[Paullus]

I believe that in ancient times happened mostly what happens today. Light color hair and eyes people are rare so they are considered special and even beautifull just for it.

I am moving to Greece. As soon as possible. 8)

Ditto :twisted:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I believe that in ancient times happened mostly what happens today. Light color hair and eyes people are rare so they are considered special and even beautifull just for it.

I am moving to Greece. As soon as possible. 8)

Ditto :twisted:

Double ditto, as I have been there and fell in love with the girls there!!! :roll: :oops:

[Arthes]

Yassou Idomeneas

In this point i would like to comment something i observed in your post Arthes that gives me the chance to see it as case study, please dont take it personally. You reffer to Macedonians and Northern Greeks as if they are seperate groups. So i conclude and correct me if im wrong that you consider Macedonians non Greek as many other people tend to do latelly.

It wasn't meant in that context... :oops:
Alexander and Philip were 'Macedonians' so I always use it as the name for their people, as opposed to say, the Thessalians, who were called 'Northern Greeks'
As far as I knew the Macedonians were of Dorian ancestry as were the Spartans, both had Hercules as their ancestor..both Dorian branches would have intermarried with the indigenous and surrounding peoples to a certain extent, which may have given them their 'look'.
It's fairly obvious that different people lived in Macedonia after the 7th century :wink: but I do think it possible some of them may have intermarried or had children with the Macedonians, so a few may just have an ancestor who fought with Alexander or one of the Diadochi...that is where things are difficult, you don't know who those few are...!
That is the closest I can get without being 'off topic' for RAT
except to say I do have some 'family' links with Macedonia, as my Grandfather was one of the British Artillerymen stationed and fighting there during WWI...