Off-the-shelf Republic civil war impression

[SOCL]

So after a very, very long delay, I seem to finally have both the time and money - not to mention drive - to complete this kit. Or maybe start is the word I'm looking for. :roll:

In light of new products on the market and some research I have done independently in the intervening period, here are a few thoughts. Inevitably a great deal of these matters will have to be addressed in their own threads so as to facilitate better and further discussions, but in general I hope some of these matters will, in a general sense, help anybody else seeking to create an impression of a legionary from the era of civil wars of the Roman Republic - say from Sulla/Marius to Actium. Granted, this listing does have a certain U.S. bias with regards to shopping preferences, shipping, etc., and as I posted in my original post, I do not mean to imply that this is The Definitive kit listing - it's just where my thoughts (and wallet) seem to be headed.

Any and all tips, ideas, considerations, and, most importantly, corrections are more than welcome! Feedback, please - feedback.



Helmet
It appears that for the present, with regards to the off-the-shelf variety, a number of helmets now exist which, if I understand correctly, fit the bill.
-The first is, of course, the 'Montefortino B' (AH6050N) offered by Deepeeka, though some changes might be in order to improve the overall impression - namely reshaping/working the crest knob to fit more in line with the time-specific 'Montefortino C'.
-The next, and perhaps most appropriate, is the recent Mannheim 'Coolus' "jockey cap" offered on Armae by (?)Deepeeka.

After that we get into the 'Celtic' helmets and, perhaps, some controversy.
-The first would be the recent Port bei Nidau Type 'B' (AH6314) by Deepeeka; however, as apparent on this thread, there are some very apparent issues with this helmet, the least of which are the eyebrows. With the improvements suggested by Peroni and Trabi, this helmet should work perfectly!
-I am inclined to include on this list the Agen-style "Celtic Helmet I" (AH6099) offered by Deepeeka in the same vein as the Port above, but sadly without some considerable work this helmet is useless as off-the-shelf, though the spirit and idea are there! An Agen would be very welcome!
-The last helmet I have placed under consideration is the 'Celtic Montefortino' (AH6318N) by Deepeeka. This helmet is particularly appealing because of its close resemblance to the 'Montefortino C' that would be ideal for this impression, in particular the crest knob (see above post by Peroni). The only issue are the obviously Celtic cheek-plates, but here's a question: Would it be inappropriate to argue for the use of this particular helmet as booty/loot captured by the particular persona's impression? I have seen at least one (modern) rendering of this style of helmet being worn by a Roman centurio whilst depicted fighting in Caesar's Gallic campaigns. The style of the cheek-plates would certainly result more than a few double-takes and perhaps some disagreement from others, but is this that far outside the range of historical (versus hopeful) possibility? Thoughts?


Scutum
I suppose that ideally one would make their own shield as this would likely yield a more appropriate and more "user-friendly" scutum, but in this regard, those of us who are rubbish to useless with their hands, there no exist at least four(!) off-the-shelf possibilities.
-The first is the original "Republican oval scutum" (AH3877) offered by Deepeeka. In general this seems like a wonderful shield, but the weight makes carrying it for extended periods of time a monstrosity of an undertaking. I have personally used this shield for drill and maneuver demonstrations and nearly felt like my arm was going to fall off from the weight! Granted, I'm a little feller, but this seemed a little intense overall! Any thoughts on this? Ought this shield be so heavy?
-The next is what appears to be the second Republican scutum (AH6128) offered by Deepeeka. This appears to have a different design based on a contemporary (to the shield) bit of work, namely a terracotta sarcophagus (image). I personally find that this shield is superior to the original design (AH3877) if only because of the contemporary and confirmed design since, if I understand correctly, the lightning bolts and wings come from a depiction of legionary shields on Trajan's Column, more than a hundred years later. Sadly, it appears that the weight has not changed. Added bonus: metallic edging!
-Third, again from Deepeeka, is yet another version of the Republican scutum, the AH6127! The design is one I have no knowledge on (though it seems a bit familiar, for some reason...), so if anybody could shed some light on this, that would be fantastic. Otherwise, another excellent shield with metallic edging (like the second version, above), but presumably as weighty as the first two.
-The last one (that I know of) is the scutum offered by Keltica Authentic (an image can be seen here, as distributed by Soul of the Warrior). This one, overall, appears to be a less weighty (unconfirmed) version of the above Deepeeka shields (the spine and boss appear to be identical) with metallic edging at the top and bottom. What makes this particular shield appealing is the fact that KA apparently offers a wooden boss, making it the only one (to my knowledge) to do so.
What I would ideally like to see is somebody offer a Republican scutum with a wooden boss with the spine that seems to "flare" as it reaches the boss. Sadly, this would take either multiple pieces (three) or one solid worked piece of wood.
Currently I have blank Republican scutum as well as 'Gallic'-style metal boss (I'll have to look again, but it's definitely not as large or of the style offered by the above shields), but no spine or, for that matter, understanding of how to make one. If anybody could provide some insight or tips into this, it would be greatly appreciated!


Gladius
The gladius is significantly easier than the helmet or shield. Simply put, it appears that the Hispaniensis 'Delos sword' (AH4215) offered by Deepeeka is the only off-the-shelf gladius for this sort of impression. I have in my notes from the first post (three years ago!) something regarding the pommel, but I can't seem to figure out what I meant by this... Is there something about the pommel that anybody out there seems to regard as somewhat "off the mark" for this particular impression? Ideally speaking, would a redesign/rework be preferable?
I have heard on numerous occasions and from a variety of individuals regarding the use of the 'Mainz'-style gladius, but I can't seem to track down whether or not this is a perpetuation of the misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the 'Mainz' as the "Hispaniensis" - any thoughts?


Pugio
I'm sure there are more out there, but I went with Soul of the Warrior's 'Titelburg'-style pugio. I seem to remember Peroni pointing me in the direction of another off-the-shelf one, but...well, it's been three years.


Lorica
In general, I suppose most lorica hamata will do - I am not aware of any particular design changes (excluding the extremes in pre- and post-dating, of course) throughout the period that would preclude, say, a sleeved hamata versus a sleeveless one. But what about the doubler? Not so much its existence as its nature: do we get the impression that they were all leather-backed/trimmed, as most reenactors choose to display, or...? I know at least one centurio from the late Republic (from legio V Alaudae, I believe) who seems to have covered his doubler completely in leather on both sides, with the front very beautifully decorated, but is this atypical or proof of pattern? I currently wear my doubler without backing or trim, my reason being that I am a poor legionary without the means to back/trim his doubler with leather and simply tie it in place with a single leather thong tie on either side of the doubler - but I think most people get the impression I'm just being lazy (which is partially true). Yet I am not convinced is required, or does the leather add some form of comfort or protection in the same way certain experiments with a subarmalis worn under a hamata appear to display?
What about the use of squamata or even plumata? Are these outside the realm of accuracy for an(y) impression in this period?


Balteus
The belt seems simple enough, too, but to plate or not to plate? I've excluded the apron all together, and plan to wear two crossed belts, one of the gladius, the other for the pugio. Should the belts be plated, and if so, ought I to stick to simple or no design? Recommendations? I currently use Deepeeka's AH3868N "Legionary belt" without the apron parts, which I believe is based on the (?)Hodd Hill find, but is this at all correct or appropriate?


Greave
I suppose just one, and maybe two if I decide to change it up a bit and "upgrade" to a centurio impression. Any recommendations on wear to get one? I had considered the greaves offered by Albion's "The Mercenary Tailor" (image), but I have doubts that these would be accurate. Knowing nothing about greaves and their design for the era and the impression, I could use some recommendations and tips - please.


Foot-wear
I am currently using the standard Deepeeka caligae, but they're extremely stretched out now from use and being soaked in mud and water at Lafe in 2008, so new ones appear to be on the horizon. I seem to remember having a conversation here on RAT regarding Republican-style caligae and the subtle differences between them and the "standard" used by most reenactors. For the life of me, I can not remember the use with whom I spoke in this regard, though I'm sure I would recognize his avatar - assuming it hasn't changed. In any event, is there an off-the-shelf caligae that might "better" fit the era than the standard model?
Also, boots. I learned that 100% wool socks can only do so much against water and mud at Lafe in 2008, so I'm interested in the covered, closed boots. Though they certainly didn't like pants, I don't get the impression these Roman fellers would have enjoyed romping around the freezing mud of Gaul, the Rhineland, and the Alpine country in open-toed foot-gear, socks or no. But that bids the question: do we have any evidence for closed boots this early?


Well, that's enough for now. Inevitably many of these topics will require their own separate threads to resolve and more fully discuss the questions and issues inherent in the topic, but I suppose this will do for now (besides which, it's 4:30am). Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated! :mrgreen:

[Marcus Mummius]

There is also the republican gladius offered by Armillum, but it seems that their website is down at the moment.

We had to do late republican for a movie for a museum last year (the ambush of the legions of Sabinus and Cotta by Ambiorix). We had to prepare in VERY short notice (about 3 weeks in advance) so you'll have to forgive us some inaccuracies like the rectangular shields on the backs of the marching legionarries (our carriage systems are made for our imperial scuta) and hooks on the hamata. But we hope to improve these things and be able to extend out imperial presentation by a republican.

Here are the pictures:

http://www.legioxi.be/fotosambiorix2009.htm

Vale,

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

[attachment=0:1m1fbw4p]<!-- ia0 t_untitled_177.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1m1fbw4p]

I had assumed this was a reasonable image for the period too. Perhaps more Augustan than not though.

[Matthew Amt]

Ave, Saul!

Good to see that you're still around! There's a Legio XX workshop TOMORROW (April 3) at my house, so if you have somehow escaped from my mailing list, drop me an email or private message and I can send you directions.

Unless Deepeeka has made some recent dramatic improvements in their caligae, I'd avoid them. Try Daniyal or Imperium, much better. I'd also go with the Keltica Republican scutum--the Deepeeka ones aren't bad but the sides seem to straightish, very much like my own less-than-successful reconstruction!

Personally, I think the Mainz gladius is correct for the era. The Deepeeka one looks pretty but the scabbard is HUGE, last I saw! Don't know if they've corrected that or not. And strictly speaking it's a later scabbard, anyway. Their older version was better because the back of the scabbard was a plain frame (and not too huge!). Something about Deepeeka's Delos sword always rubbed me the wrong way, but yeah, it's probably easy enough to modify the hilt. Oh, no baldric--the sword hangs on the belt.

Hamata--While I certainly understand laziness, don't try to justify omission of edging/backing or proper hooks because of wealth! If that were the case, you wouldn't have armor, eh? DEFINITELY shell out for mail with alternating rows of riveted and solid rings, from Find-It, SOTW, etc. (Again, not Deepeeka, unless they have started making it that way.) Edging the shoulder doubling really doesn't take that long, if your hamata doesn't come with it.

Belt--One or two, should be fine either way. Unfortunately, Deepeeka AH3868 is a total loss and always has been. The buckle might be salvageable. I'd go with plain rectangular plates (plain brass or tinned), but wouldn't argue with unplated. Only the pugio hangs from frogs, the sword does not. Right, no apron yet.

Skip the greaves for now. They aren't necessary for your impression, and it can be REALLY hard to find some that fit and look right. And if they don't fit, you will find yourself in serious pain. Trust me.

By the way, if it sounds like I'm knocking Deepeeka a lot, I really do like a lot of their stuff! Including their Montefortino helmet. They even have 2 new belts which look great for Imperial impressions! But they've been surpassed on a number of items.

See you tomorrow? Vale,

Matthew

[SOCL]

Thanks for the quick feedback, all!

@Marcus: Just out of curiosity, how much would you see that the shield you show in your pics weighs?

@Byron: I've always understood that to illustrate something of a "later" Augustan, "Pax Augustan" legionary, sometime after Actium and leading well into the reign of Tiberius, in particular the helmet (which appears to be a 'Coolus E') and the very small and shortened shield.

@Matt: Ave, good sir - I haven't spoken to you since last Roman Days! Thanks for the invitation to workshop, but sadly I'll be working the mid-shift tomorrow and won't be able to make it out your way, though I'm certainly keeping an eye out for future workshops! I'll certainly be contact with you either here or via email when I start on the shield and the belts. I'm curious on your thoughts regarding the Caesarian Mannheim Coolus jockey cap offered by ARMAE, based on the images I posted.
With regards to the hamata, I have the 8mm Find-It hamata, which comes with leather trim on the doubler's edge and along the bottom edge. Sadly, the armor was massively long and heavy on me, so I trimmed a significant portion from the bottom and from the doubler, but my lack of handy skills make salvaging the trim a difficult task. I suppose the idea for the leather trim isn't a difficult one, it's the fact that I don't really know where or how much leather to order, the thickness of the leather, etc., because otherwise applying the trim seems to be a simple exercise in sewing.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, I'm afraid i was actualy looking for a photo of my first attempt at a Republican impression and came across this instead.... :oops:
I posted it because I have some very nice prints of different period soldiers on my wall, and one is labeled Ceasar's army, which
looks very like this. Open for debate forsure, but a nice picture....
I personally would also go for the montefortino, but there does seem to be a train of thought that says the 'Augustan' type scutum was possibly around in Caesars day.

I can't recall which site I nicked this picture from, or who the artist is, but it's helping brighten my office right now anyway.....

[Nathan Ross]

We had to do late republican for a movie for a museum last year (the ambush of the legions of Sabinus and Cotta by Ambiorix). We had to prepare in VERY short notice (about 3 weeks in advance)...

Here are the pictures:

http://www.legioxi.be/fotosambiorix2009.htm

That's pretty respectable for short notice!

Unusual shield design you've used - it looks similar to one from the Stéphane Lagrange illustration to François Gilbert's 'Caesar?'s Legionary' feature in Ancient Warfare II.4:



[url:1z1249jx]http://www.ancient-warfare.com/cms/ancient-warfare/issues/ancient-warfare-4-2008.html[/url]

Any idea what the source for it might be, if any?

- Nathan

[Marcus Mummius]

I haven't weighed the shields yet, but I guess about 6-7kg. Not heavier than our imperial scuta.

The shield design is based on a monument from France I believe. I haven't got the time to look for the exact source right now. Someone else might know it by hard, if not I will post it here in a few days.

Vale,

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It was part of a thread on here a year or so back. I think it was Tarbicus who posted the image..

[SOCL]

It's actually buried back on the first page in that really, really long post I typed up this morning. Here is the scan from one of the Osprey books. It's from a terracotta sarcophagus "dated to the 1st Century".

I haven't weighed the shields yet, but I guess about 6-7kg. Not heavier than our imperial scuta.

So a little guy like me could heft around and use it appropriately, instead of just grounding it and crouching a bit? :lol:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That was why I was looking for my shots. Don't know how tall you are, but I am pretty well covered from ankle to chin with my DSC republican scutum. Someone has a photo but I don't seem to own a copy.... :|

[Nathan Ross]

It's actually buried back on the first page in that really, really long post I typed up this morning.

So it is! My apologies for not noticing - I really should pay more attention :oops: . It's an intriguing sarcophagus - a centurion's, presumably, if that really is a very chunky vitis on the left... although it looks more like a cudgel. I'm not sure about the reconstruction of the shield design, though - it seems rather a speculative elaboration on a quite simple original. The Augustan shields from the Appuleius monument in the same Osprey book (next page, I think) look a bit more complex. Interesting that the sarcophagus shows both oval and square(ish) shields side by side - evidence that both types were used at the same time?

- Nathan

[Marcus Mummius]

It's actually buried back on the first page in that really, really long post I typed up this morning.

So it is! My apologies for not noticing - I really should pay more attention :oops: .

lol, same here

[SOCL]

That was why I was looking for my shots. Don't know how tall you are, but I am pretty well covered from ankle to chin with my DSC republican scutum.

I'm 5'6'', about average Roman height. :roll: About how much does your shield weigh?

The Augustan shields from the Appuleius monument in the same Osprey book (next page, I think) look a bit more complex.

Do you happen to have a scan? The Google Books link I provided doesn't contain the next page.

Interesting that the sarcophagus shows both oval and square(ish) shields side by side - evidence that both types were used at the same time?

It seems clear there was a significant period of overlap as legionaries "transitioned" (if such a modern concept can be used) from the oval scutum to the rectangular one, which likely explains why the "Augustan" type has rounded corners and why the Praetorian Guard is depicted as carrying a form of "hybrid" shield spanning the two types: small like the latter and near-oval-shaped like the earlier.

Any thoughts regarding the helmets I posted, in particular the use of the Celtic Montefortino? I took the idea from this image, though the cheek-plates are different. I can no longer remember when or where I got it:
[attachment=0:1fgomnez]<!-- ia0 Legionary9 (Gallic Wars).jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1fgomnez]

Or what about thoughts regarding the design of the third version of the Deepeeka Republican scutum?

[A_Volpe]

Great to hear from you, Saul, and that you're keeping on your Late Republic kit

I've gotten to a fairly 'set' point in my kit, which I place between the end of the Gallic wars, and into the Great Civil War, so somewheres around then.

I've tried to keep as much of the gear "domestic" from makers in the U.S. as I could, partly for economy, but also to support domestic makers, trying to not be dependent on (Deepeeka) stuff, not to knock DPK, but to show it's not the 'only' option.

Actually, I wore this kit at Roman Days at the University!

- Montefortino A (Deepeeka's version) - I'm pretty happy with it. Fit is OK and details are OK. I have opted not to modify it for the time being for 2 reasons: 1. I'm cheap and I still ponder the idea of having a Punic wars kit someday, and don't want to shell out for another helmet since the type changes so little, really over the years... 2. I'm on the box thinking that if it was working good, why replace it? I'm thinking the helmet had seen a few campaigns and a few owners (there is that Monte found with 3 soldier's names on it). Of course, if new info/finds come along, I'll revise.

I also elected to put a horse hair tail plume on my helmet. I went with a natural/brownish color. I like to throw people off by twirling strands in my fingers when talking to them and saying "like", "oh my gawd", "totally fer shure" and "Ya know?" a lot. Or toussing it over my shoulder with a flick of the wrist...

- Maille/Lorica Hammata (Find-It Armory's Hammata Ferrata 8mm Riveted and Solid) - I'm very happy with this. It was one of my most expensive purchases, and I was heartbroken to have to snip off a few rows to make it fit, and disappointed it's galvanized and the serpentine clasps aren't so great...BUT, overall I'm very happy with it. I have elected to keep the leather edging on the doublers and bottom 'hem' for now, it's what makes sense to me for now.

- Scutum - I have the Ginourmous Deepeeka AH3877...I too feel it's way heavy and painful to carry for a while. This is either because 1. it IS too heavy; or 2. we don't carry the things often like the Romans did, we may not have built up the muscle to heft it...? Not totally sure about that though. I'm also slowly leaning to the theory that maybe by the 30's BCE they are using more of the "Augustan" style shields (and then I'd like to make my own someday), or perhaps more like Deepeeka's AH6128...?

- Gladius - I currently use the 'standard' Deepeeka AH4209. I will replace the scabbard...Someday....Probably when I replace my Pompeii scabbard..It's only been, what, 6+ years? :oops:

- Caligae - I use a pair made by Par Fabricae they are just great. I hope to have him make me a pair this summer using conical hobnails, and continue to use the current "flat head" pair for 'indoor' use.

- Pugio - I don't use one for my Late Republic impression - I just don't feel it's a 'necessary' item at this point. When you have the Augustan 'reformations' and more 'standardized' gear, and more of it from said reformation, I think daggers become more commonplace. But inasmuch as in the Late Republic, I think much of a soldier's kit is likely from his own pocket...er...coin purse, eh?...But I'm also not really impressed with the current selection.

- Belt - I have a plain belt. I made my own D-shaped buckle based on one of Matt Amt's (on his Gladius Hispanesis), cut out of brass sheet. What's confusing to me about plates or not is that reference of Pompey confiscating soldier's belts to strip off the silver...to pay the soldiers... But Ahenobarbus and other references don't seem to show any belt details...So I'm still on the fence on that one, too.

I don't go for a Greave yet, I tend to agree with Matt the current offerings just aren't great, I feel I'd need to get a custom-fitted piece to make sure comfort is factored into it. But that I also tend to think that's an earlier piece of gear. (in an unrelated note, I really want to get a Manica for my Imperial kit...SIGH someday...)


anyway keep up the good work, hope to see you at the next Roman Days perhaps!
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