Delos Sword

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Salve,

In the lasts months, we have talked a lot about the roman gladius founded at Delos (Greece). I have seen a little picture one time and the not very clear drawings at Feugere and Bishop/Coulston books.

Now my question is: Anybody have some pictures or any write information about that sword (original archeological reports, etc).

Thanx

[L C Cinna]

There are 2 in the latest edition of Junckelmann's Legionen des Augustus. I don't have a scanner here so I have to wait till monday to scan it at uni, unless someone else has a scan of it. Sorry but I'll try.

here is a bit about the one at the Musée du Berry
Delos

I like the Delos, it has a pretty long and sharp point lol looks like an absolute killer

[Aurelianus]

Here is the photo from "Die Legionen des Augustus"

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127 ... an0004.jpg

And here the description in my English :wink:



On the left:
type Delos
first half/middle of 1st BC
Reconstruction by Werner Bodensteiner, Nürnberg

On the right:
type Mainz
second half of 1st BC/first half of 1st AD
Reconstruction by Michael Simkins, Nottingham.

[Robert]

Looks a lot like a modified spatha to me! Could this be an intermediate type, signaling the transition to the longer blade in infantry? Any solid dating on the Delos find?? It's quoted as BC, but the longer blades only showed up after 1 cent. AD. Personal preference or re-use of a good blade modified after losing the point of a spatha? Puzzling find!

[Matthew Amt]

No, it's a gladius hispaniensis, a longer style dating back to the Punic War era. The blades ran 24 to 27 inches and tended to be slim, some straight-edged and others slightly waisted. They seem to have been used through Caesar's time (when the Mainz was apparently coming into use), but finally went away in favor of the shorter types.

The reconstruction in Junklemann's book doesn't have the right pommel. On the original, there were 7 (or 8 ) iron nails apparently arranged in a radial pattern, with their points stuck to the tip of the tang. They might have run around the middle of the pommel, or been at the top and "hung" down over the top of it. Not sure what the current wisdom is on that. The original scabbard had only TWO rings, both on the same side, like my own hispaniensis:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hispan1.jpg

Yeah, the usual drawings of the Delos don't show enough detail!

Vale,

Matthew

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The sword reconstructed by Junkelmann is'nt the Delos one. It's a very good reconstruction of another hispaniensis, the Fontillet (Cher) one, presrved in Berry Museum (France) and probably of Cesarian or early augustean date.

It's curious, because a lot of swords with a opus interrasile scabbard are classified as Mainz but have a long blade very close to the hispaniensis shape.

I remember one at Museum Mainz, the Kalkriese one, etc.

[hansvl]

Here is a (poor quality) photo of the original find at Delos (now in Delos museum):



If you want a better and larger version of this picture, please PM me your e-mail adress.

Hans

[Matthew Amt]

The sword reconstructed by Junkelmann is'nt the Delos one. It's a very good reconstruction of another hispaniensis, the Fontillet (Cher) one, presrved in Berry Museum (France) and probably of Cesarian or early augustean date.

Ah, that explains! I should have recognized it. Yes, nice repro in that case, thanks!

Matthew

[L C Cinna]

Wait a second. I have a little question about the definitions:

Why couldn't the one at Berry be a Delos type? I thought "gladius hispanienses" is the main category for this type of sword, and the "Delos" and "Mainz" are 2 identifiable subtypes. So if the one at Berry has similar design to the one example found in Delos, it is a Delos Gladius, just like all swords of a specific type are called "Mainz" no matter where they were found, or are the "real" Deolos and the "Berry" too different?

How long is the one found on Delos? To me they look rather similar with the long blade and long point.

[aitor iriarte]

Michael,
Hispaniensis and Mainz are different and sucessive types (i.e. Mainz type evolved from hispaniensis type retaining some features, like the waisted blade and the long point, while becoming shortened in length)
The sword from Delos and the Berry one are both Hispanienses.

Aitor

[L C Cinna]

Ok. thank you Aitor. I remember reading a different definition somewhere which used "delos" and "mainz"as subcategories of Gladius Hispaniensis and the Pompeii as a new main category, that's why I asked.

I myself always thought that Hispaniensis is a seperate type so we have: Hispaniensis, Delos, Mainz, Fulham, Pompeii.

So, all gladii before the Mainz are Hisp., right?

[Conal]

IIRC the Delos sword has parallel sides and the Berry sword has a waisted blade.

So could not the Mainz come from the "Berry" type and the Fulham come from the "Delos" type ?

Is there any evidence that the parallel & waisted types did not continue up to the adoption of the shorter gladius type ?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I think that kind of closed clasifications don't work with the blades shapes.

In fact, we only have one specimen of the Fulham type, no?

The Berry sword is almost augustean, and it's a kind of sword of the length of the hispaniensis, but waisted as the contemporany and posteriors Mainz ones.

[aitor iriarte]

All the Hispanienses that I've ever seen are slightly waisted. The Delos sword is yet inside its scabbard (or at least inside the metal border guttering) and, therefore, it is not possible to say whether it is straigt-sided or not without closer examining involving X-Rays.

Aitor

[Tarbicus]

Mike Bishop's drawings of Republican swords:
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig025.png
1 Alfaro
2 Smihel
3 Delos
4 Smihel
5 Giubiasco

No. 2 from Smihel looks to me more bent down its length than waisted, with a slight bulge at the very top.