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Cloak Fastening/Attaching Method
#1
I have seen the cloak draped over the shoulders and then fastened together in the front. I have also seen it apparently fastened to the top of the shoulders but not sure exactly how. The below picture is an illustration as to what I am referring to. I've seen numerous pictures with the cloak draped in this manner.

I have segmented armor so what would be the best way to drape it in the latter fashion without closing it together? How are others doing it? Should I use a fibula like one of these: http://www.lawrensnest.com/fibulas.html

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Randy Sampson
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#2
Quote:Should I use a fibula like one of these: http://www.lawrensnest.com/fibulas.html
I have no answer to the cloak draping, but to this question i can say: "No".
These are not Roman fibulae. The omega fibula sort, of, but not really.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#3
I think the cloaks in your picture may safely be described as 'Hollywood cloaks'.

As to fibulae, you could try Len Morgan's small pennanular
http://www.romanarmy.net/fabrica.htm

but I suspect you could make a basic pennanular brooch yourself with very little difficulty. This would be used to secure a sagum over the right shoulder (although there is evidence for them being secured at the neck instead on occasion, as seen below).

[Image: Mainzbase3imbase.jpg]

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#4
There is no doubt that I have seen this method of draping the sargum cloak in "Hollywood epics." However, I have seen photos on this site and others with reenactors employing this method. Thus I assumed it was a method validated in some form by archaeological evidence. Does anyone know if there is any evidence (either textual or pictographic) out there for this method?

Nevertheless, thanks for your input.

Randy Sampson
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#5
I wear it like they do in the Hollywood epics for my praetorian tribune impression and my sole justification is this statue of Mars. This way the sagum looks, feels, and behaves better than using the more common way of using a single clasp that somehow is supposed to stay fixed to the right shoulder. In reality the cape never stays in place using the single-clasp method as you see on statues and modern artists' paintings. The sagum, under its own weight, will shift to either side or, worse, backward which chokes your neck - very uncomfortable. The way I attach my sagum to each shoulder is by anchoring the pins underneath my armor's shoulder plates. Works perfectly and looks great, IMO.


~Theo
Jaime
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#6
Quote:The way I attach my sagum to each shoulder is by anchoring the pins underneath my armor's shoulder plates. Works perfectly and looks great, IMO.
Thanks for the input Theo. I'm trying to visualize how you attach the cloak from your description because (as the topic of my post indicates) I'm trying to figure out the best way of attaching the cloak in this manner. So you bring a pin up from the underside of the segmented armor's shoulder plates and then you attach it to the cloak? What type of pin? How do you anchor it to the underside of the segmented armor? Do you have a photo of how you do this that you could post?

Your point about the cloak not staying in place when you use the single clasp method is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. And I don't want to just drape the cloak over the shoulder. Again, thanks. And I hope you can provide a photo or more input.

Randy Sampson
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#7
Salve,

Firstly I am not an expert on ancient history, I’m far more an ancient history ‘buff’ but… Since I am working on an officer’s impression, I have painstakingly looked at every photo of an original sculpture, painting, & mosaic I could find where a Roman is sporting a cloak (the Gods aside :wink: ) .

In all honesty, every time I see a legionary, officer, general, or Emperors over at Travis’ site… in additional to every single Roman all over Trajan’s column, everyone… honestly... absolutely everyone has their cloak draped over their left shoulder and pined at the right shoulder… every time, everyone.

The only variation of this (the authentic cloak over the left shoulder & pinned on the right) that I could come across is the ‘heroic wrapped cloak’ version… sometimes seen in the sculptor of an Emperor. Where the Emperor bunches up the fabric on his left shoulder, pins it there, wraps the cloak around his waist, and drapes it over his left forearm allowing it to hang in a ‘heroic’ fashion.

As for the Hollywood cape version (pinning two points of the cloak at both shoulders) I have never found one single example of that. Although personally I rather like it! :oops: ... I'm going to go with the pin at the right shoulder.

General Julius Caesar
[Image: Julius%20caesar%20statue%20II_small.jpg]


Legionary on Trajan's column
[Image: Shield_TC3_15_h499.jpg]

Heroic style here"
[url:2cejpwk4]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/images/maureliusvaticandet1a.jpg[/url]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#8
Here are many more examples from Travis's site:
[url:166avkah]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/musculata3.htm[/url]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#9
Quote:So you bring a pin up from the underside of the segmented armor's shoulder plates and then you attach it to the cloak? What type of pin? How do you anchor it to the underside of the segmented armor? Do you have a photo of how you do this that you could post?

My method won't work for segmented armor, IMO. It works for my tribune impression because I wear a musculata (muscled cuirass) like the Mars statue and because I invented my own pins based on the representational evidence.

However, if you were to wear chainmail it should work. Simply slip the pins underneath the rings and clasp them shut. Honestly though, I think only officers may have worn their sagum in this style.

Quote:The only variation of this (the authentic cloak over the left shoulder & pinned on the right) that I could come across is the ‘heroic wrapped cloak’ version… sometimes seen in the sculptor of an Emperor. Where the Emperor bunches up the fabric on his left shoulder, pins it there, wraps the cloak around his waist

That style is just as authentic as the single-clasp method on the right shoulder. It was also sometimes worn that way by centurions.

Quote:absolutely everyone has their cloak draped over their left shoulder and pined at the right shoulder… every time, everyone.

Almost everyone is a common soldier so it wouldn't be appropriate anyway. I think the only ones who may have sometimes clasped down their sagum were officers. The Mars statue is the only example I know of that depicts this style but there may be others.

~Theo
Jaime
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#10
Don't get me wrong Theo, I honestly like your method ... I just couldn't find any example of it... asides from the Gods.

Even on HBOs Rome, Antony & Caesar sported their cloaks in the 'cape' fashion…. Perhaps somewhere there are examples?

As for what Travis calls the "heroic" way to sport the cloak... I personally think that is a posed way of displaying it, or how it was worn on special occasions, as opposed to the way it would normally be worn. I couldn't picture anyone walking around with the cloak draped over their forearm all day like that! Pined at the left shoulder yes… but heck, walking around with my hand turned over all day... my arm would get tired!

Anyways... Trajan wore his cloak over the left shoulder and pinned at the right... well, at least he's portrayed that way on his column:

Trajan receives two Dacians Spiral & Panel Number: 11c
[url:1eegmwze]http://www.stoa.org/trajan/images/hi/1.79.h.jpg[/url]

Trajan interacting with his army Spiral & Panel Number: 8a
[url:1eegmwze]http://www.stoa.org/trajan/images/hi/4.1.h.jpg[/url]

Trajan sacrifices at a harbour-town Spiral & Panel Number: 13c
[url:1eegmwze]http://www.stoa.org/trajan/images/hi/1.100.h.jpg[/url]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#11
Hi Anthony,

I wasn't offended. I know there's little evidence to support my method but I just wanted to point out that some does exist.

As for the other method of bunching up the sagum and pinning it to the left shoulder - there are tombstones that show this being employed by centurions. I recommend you buy Graham Sumner's Osprey books on "Roman Military Clothing." He cites all the evidence of styles for wearing tunics and cloaks.

Thanks for the links.

~Theo
Jaime
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#12
I believe what you're referring to as the "heroic" method is a palaudementum. It hangs over the left shoulder and is draped over the left arm. We discussed that style here just a few weeks ago.
BTW- I've never seen a sagum any way but pinned to the right shoulder while wearing an hamata.
Andy Booker

Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs

Andronikos of Athens
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#13
Again, I wouldn't be so quick to use ART as a single source of how to wear a cloak. And we're not talking officers here, we're talking rank and file types. Drape one of the ends over your shoulders, using the "omega" style of broach, pin the two pieces together, and you're done.

In Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing Vol. 1, on page 4 diagram A & B, you can see this is how the legionarys wore their cloaks. Again on page 17...that picture (from trajan's column) is identical to how I wear mine.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
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Legion: TBD
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#14
Another reason why I wouldn't think that the "hero" method of fastening the cloak would work for the common soldier or at least the front line troops is that it isn't practical. First, you've doubled the number of fasteners, that's twice the effort and time to get the cloak off. Second, having it attached in that way means you can't do much with the cloak, since it's position is less dynamic. For example, in the way shown in Sumner, and the way I wear mine, I can toss it over my shoulder guards, exposing my weapons, or, I can drape it over me, completely enshrouding my body, protecting me from the elements if required.

Here you can see it tossed back and over the shoulder guard units:

[url:19vhx4cm]http://www.geocities.com/legioxxxcoh1/MagnusandDecimus01.jpg[/url]
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#15
Quote:Drape one of the ends over your shoulders, using the "omega" style of broach, pin the two pieces together, and you're done.

In Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing Vol. 1, on page 4 diagram A & B, you can see this is how the legionarys wore their cloaks. Again on page 17...that picture (from trajan's column) is identical to how I wear mine.
Thanks for the input, Magnus. I'm going to do it just like you show in the photos you provided. Would the fibula I cited above at http://www.lawrensnest.com/fibulas.html be acceptable, specifically the first one (the large omega style) or the second one (simple fibula)? Or are these fibulae not Roman as one person noted? Or do you have a link to another supplier?

Randy Sampson
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