Suicide in historical movies

[L C Cinna]

Salvete!

I've been wondering about something after seeing all those old Hollywood movies around easter again.

You know suicide appears frequently in Roman history, Antonius and Varus killing themselves with their swords for example. In the movies they usually take their gladius and ram it into their belly. Something they show Samurai doing as well in the movies.

Now to make this short (more later when we hopefully have a discussion lol)

To me this seems a rather stupid way to kill oneself. i mean, sticking something into your belly doesn't usually kill instantly if I'm correct. Something like the way they used to kill gladiators sometimes, along the side of the neck into the heart for example is a much quicker way (but impossible to do all alone). So how do we have to imagine this happening? did they try to stick the sword from the belly upwards towards the heart(might be problematic to get the right angle or power like this)?

*note this is not supposed to be a "guide to suicide" I just wondered because in the movies they die instantly(just enough time left for some dramatic sentence maybe) which I think you probably wouldn't

[Tarbicus]

Cato's suicide was seen as an "up yours" at Caesar and was highly respected, but IIRC he botched it and ended up pulling his own intestines out (he stabbed himself in the stomach).

Not Roman, but Hannibal took poison which, given he was one of the greatest military men ever, is in stark contrast to the usual falling on the sword.

[Martin Wallgren]

How about the execution method used in Rome at the killing of cicero and the bothed execution of Maximus in Gladiator. Any historical texts or pictures that shows it like that?

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

In most accounts I've read, the popular method seems to be "opening a vein" while sitting in warm/hot water. Very popular with the nobility.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

After seeing this thread I found a very interesting book, that is available at Questia.com:

Ambitiosa Mors: Suicide and the Self in Roman Thought and Literature by Timothy Hill; Routledge, 2004

It has some interesting, yet morbid, stuff in it. Apparently Cato's bothced suicide was especially notable because essentially he did it twice, doubly-showing his resolve and the nobility of the act.

I also didn't realize that suicide by hanging was seen as very low class. Aparrently if you are going to kill yourself, it shouldn't be something easy to do or even necessarily painless!

Apparently Seneca was obsessed with suicide (ironic since he was forced into suicide!) so if anyone is looking for more into the subject you could consutl his works as well.

[Dan Diffendale]

There's the Homeric precedent of the suicide of Ajax...

[Narukami]

To me this seems a rather stupid way to kill oneself. i mean, sticking something into your belly doesn't usually kill instantly if I'm correct.

Indeed, one does not die instantly unless they thrust the sword deep enough to cut the spinal cord.

That is why in Seppuku (hara kiri is the more common and vulgar term for the ritual suicide of the Samurai -- hara means stomach and kiri is the verb 'to cut') one not only cuts their own stomach, but a "Second" stands ready to cut off their head and thus finish them off quickly.

'Cut off' is a bit of a misnomer, for a truly skilled Second would sever the head but not completely, leaving the head attached to the body by a small sliver of skin on the throat. The Second would then use a small knife to finish removing the head. Of course, not all Seconds were so skilled, nor always available on the battlefield.

In the late feudal period the ritual had become such that the "victim" did not even have to cut themselves. In this later form of Seppuku as soon as the victim touched the knife the Second cut off his head. To most this would seem to be simple execution, however, by simply picking up the knife they showed their intention to kill themselves and thus honor was served.

The classic text on Seppuku (if you are interested) is "Hara Kiri - Japanese Ritual Suicide" by Jack Seward.

http://www.amazon.com/Hara-Kiri-Japanes ... 907&sr=8-1


Mishima Yukio wrote a detailed and graphic description of hara kiri in his short story "Patriotism" that you might also find of interest, though it is a story not for the weak stomach (so to speak). You will find this short story in his collection "Death In Midsummer"."

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Midsummer-O ... 208&sr=1-5

Narukami