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Reconstructing a 6th c. Baldenheim spangenhelm
#31
Quote:Fascinating. Seems like that would actually be more complicated than simply edging with strips of leather, as you would a scutum.

I don't suppose there's any chance this report is in English? I'd love to get my hands on a copy.

More than that I'd love to see a detailed report on the Vierteiliger helm...the surviving example that that has gilded spangens and silver plates.

Indeed, not just edging like on a scutum. There were traces of linen fabric found on the inside of some of these helmets too.

Which helmet do you mean? 'Vierteiliger' means 'consisting out of 4 parts'.

All the info I have is written in German...

Vale,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#32
Ha! That's what I get from growing up in a sadly monolinguistic society. I was talking about this helm:
[Image: milit-Spangenhelm.jpg]
The museum placard read "Vierteiliger" so I figured that must be the place-name where it was found.
Franklin Slaton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Your mother wears caligae!
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#33
The replica's that i have seen of the Morken,gammertingen and krefeld gellep 1782 helmets, were made of copper alloy sheet of about 0,8mm thick and fire gildet.
But are the late roman?
Not according to the rest of the finds in graves they were found in.
Here these helmets are known as merovingian, early mediaval frankisch.
Regards

Garrelt
-----------------------------------------------------
Living History Group Teuxandrii
Taberna Germanica
Numerus I Exploratores Teuxandrii (Pedites et Equites)
Ludus Gladiatorii Gunsula
Jomsborg Elag Hrafntrae
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#34
Probably "vierteiliger" means made by four (vier) parts (teil).
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#35
Quote:The replica's that i have seen of the Morken,gammertingen and krefeld gellep 1782 helmets, were made of copper alloy sheet of about 0,8mm thick and fire gildet.
But are the late roman?
Not according to the rest of the finds in graves they were found in.
Here these helmets are known as merovingian, early mediaval frankisch.

No iron core? I find that hard to belive as all the pictures of real artifacts I have seen (including the ones from the recent exhibition in Mainz) show the base construction were iron segments. These were afterwards covered with copper alloy sheet metal.

I don't think anyone stated these helmets were Roman... There are two groups noticable in this helmettype. An eastern and a western group. The distinction between the two types is the number of spangen. Most Western helmets were found in Merovingian graves indeed.

Vale,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#36
Quote:But are the late roman?

Well, FINALLY he joins this forum! Welcome Garrelt. :wink:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
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#37
Garrelt!!!!! Big Grin
[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png] [Image: Estalada.gif]
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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#38
i will have to look into the plubications if there were any traces of an iron core found, during the excavations or restauration.
As far as i know parts of the leather lining was directly found on copper alloy parts of the helmets.
eastern and western types ok,what if both types in the same region .
If you look at the gultlingen helmet (dating 5th century) this one is made with iron plates for the skull, copper alloy cheekpieces, spangen and rim.
from 'die alamannen" page161
same construction has the steinbrunn(burgenland) helmet (dating 6th century) .
from 'die langobarden"by wilfried menghim page 31
my helmet is of the same construction, but i ware this only when i put on my germanic/merovingian kit.[/img][/b]
Regards

Garrelt
-----------------------------------------------------
Living History Group Teuxandrii
Taberna Germanica
Numerus I Exploratores Teuxandrii (Pedites et Equites)
Ludus Gladiatorii Gunsula
Jomsborg Elag Hrafntrae
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#39
Quote:If you look at the gultlingen helmet (dating 5th century) this one is made with iron plates for the skull, copper alloy cheekpieces, spangen and rim.

That's what I mean whith the helmets having an iron core...
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#40
Garrelt,

Would love to see more close-up pics of your helm.Big Grin And the rest of your kit as well!

Sounds like this confirms the alloy spangen/iron plates construction described at the top of this thread.

My next question regards the actual metallurgic makeup of the spangens. As somebody else mentioned "copper alloy" covers a wide range from bronze to brass, etc. I'd love to know where historical helms fell on that spectrum.
Franklin Slaton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Your mother wears caligae!
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#41
Quote:Garrelt,

Would love to see more close-up pics of your helm.
Me too! Looks great & I would like to have one too!
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
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#42
@Franklin, from one closeup picture I would think brass was almost certainly used. But it's very hard to see in pictures. The Romans often didn't know exactly what they were using themselves. A lot of wild mixtures were used. They didn't have metals as pure as we do now.

@Garrelt: Nice helmet! Are there surviving examples of undecorated 'spangen' and undecorated browband? You could of course add punched decoration on the spangen if you want too.

In a few weeks my helmet should be finished too. I'll most certainly post pictures. Four of my fellow students are also making a reconstruction of a Baldenheim helmet so I could post pictures of theirs too when it's finished Smile

Vale
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#43
Great!

Only makes me a little sad...so many other reconstructions around the globe will make mine less unique. Whenever I get around to building it, that is!
Franklin Slaton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Your mother wears caligae!
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#44
Quote:Great!

Only makes me a little sad...so many other reconstructions around the globe will make mine less unique. Whenever I get around to building it, that is!

lol, 3 of the helmets are made by girls who will probably never wear it to an event and the guy has to large a head to wear his :wink: Mine fits me though.
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#45
Here's a nice side-view with the cheek plates intact :

[Image: stadtinfos_geschichte2.jpg]

Do the cheeks have embossed scales ? :?

~Theo
Jaime
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