Siege Thread

[D B Campbell]

Actually,when did the towns start building walls!This in itself explains why the Greeks were so ignorant of siege warfare.

Good point, Giannis. In mainland Greece, only Athens and Thebes (afaik) were walled prior to the Persian Wars.

[Mythos_Ruler]

There is the story of Argos having walls as well. After the Spartans defeated the Argive army, the women and old men had to man the walls in defense of the city. The Spartans gave up and left, saying it would be dishonorable to fight women and old men.

[hoplite14gr]

Sesklo and Elatea had been fortified fron the Neolithic Age.
Corinth had Acrocorinthos. There are remanants of Achean and Elean fortifications from the Bronze Age and lets not forget Mycenae.
Geometric Era fortifications exist in Beotiea amd Thessaly

Kind regards

[D B Campbell]

... the Neolithic Age ... ... from the Bronze Age ... Geometric Era ...

I was disregarding such early examples: it's not clear how well these were maintained into the Classical period. For example, the Argives seem to have had little trouble in capturing Mycenae in 468 BC (Diod. Sic. 11.65.5), suggesting that the famous Bronze Age defences had not been maintained.

[hoplite14gr]

I was disregarding such early examples: it's not clear how well these were maintained into the Classical period. For example, the Argives seem to have had little trouble in capturing Mycenae in 468 BC (Diod. Sic. 11.65.5), suggesting that the famous Bronze Age defences had not been maintained.

Or the defenders might have been thinly a spread.
Mycene at the time were ashadow of their past.

HYITOS in Beotia not excavated yet(!) Lilea in Phokis.
Not to forget Krissa and Kirra that Solon had to poison the garrison in order to take them in the "Delfic Holly War".

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Fair enough Stefanos,there were some city states that had walls befor the Persian Wars.But the point is still valid that they vastly prefered hoplite battles instead of sieges and thus the art of siege war had not evolved much.

[hoplite14gr]

As I said the money for the sige equipment and the maintanave of the army in the field were beyond thew capabilities of the most city states of the Era.
Persian reduced most most walled cities by their resources rather than any other reason.
Kind regards

[Eleatic Guest]

The capstan and belt drive idea was devised by Eric Marsden to explain an obscure phrase in Biton's description of a different helepolis, this time the helepolis of Posidonius (apparently one of Alexander the Great's engineers). However, even if the ancient Greeks knew about the continuous belt-drive, I'm not sure that such a mechanism would have been powerful enough to move a helepolis.

I have never heard about a belt drive in antiquity. Have you by chance more information on that, Duncan?

[Eleatic Guest]

Yeah,a very nice comment!
What do we know about sieges among the greek sates prior to the Persian Wars?

Ckeck out this page if you are proficient in Spanish:

http://www.rubensaez.com/descargas.htm

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks,but i don't know a spanish word... :?

[D B Campbell]

I have never heard about a belt drive in antiquity. Have you by chance more information on that, Duncan?

This was just an idea of Eric Marsden's. I don't believe it existed.

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, I would agree with Duncam's view.

I know that I illustrated Belts in "Warfare in the Classical World", following Marsden, but at the time there was neither time nor budget money to do follow-up research on what was a very technical subject.
Marsden did a wonderful job of interpreting partially complete manuals written in obscure greek, a task which defied all who came before him.
All modern understanding of Greek and Roman military machines is based on his foundation, even if we know a little more now than then.

My current view is that a belt drive would not work due to the vast friction problems encountered. What might work however is a capstan arrangement, like those used to raise anchors on wooden sailing ships - an anchor (like a kedge) could be run out by a party under cover, and then the tower winched up towards it (kedge fashion).

[D B Campbell]

What might work however is a capstan arrangement, like those used to raise anchors on wooden sailing ships - an anchor (like a kedge) could be run out by a party under cover, and then the tower winched up towards it (kedge fashion).

Yup -- this is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote about "The Method of Propulsion" (in [amazon]Greek and Roman Siege Machinery[/amazon] p. 13 = [amazon]Besieged. Siege Warfare in the Ancient World[/amazon] p. 86):

It would have been possible (though this is entirely conjectural) for anchor points to be driven into the ground ahead of the machine, and for ropes to run from these back to the on-board winch; men inside the machine could then have winched it forwards as far as the anchor points. Of course, such a scheme did not necessarily require the winching apparatus to be aboard the helepolis, and something similar could have been employed to move any heavy, wheeled machine. If the ropes were securely attached to the undercarriage and were run forwards, through pulleys at the anchor points, and back to the rear, a hauling crew (perhaps including draught animals, or utilizing winches) could have dragged the machine forwards. The only danger would have been to the men and tackle exposed ahead of the machine, where they were vulnerable to enemy missiles.

Entirely conjectural, of course!

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry, Duncan !
Mea Culpa - I'm afraid I haven't read your books - its just that one can't buy everything these days. (sigh!!).......one day.

On the other hand, it does show "great minds think alike..." ( or even great minds like a think ! )......or maybe even "fools seldom differ..."!!

...and of course, the method we both described was a proven one for moving massive wooden objects (albeit in a naval context)

Conjecture, yes, but at least possible and maybe probable.

[D B Campbell]

Sorry, Duncan ! I'm afraid I haven't read your books - its just that one can't buy everything these days.

No need to apologise, Paul. RAT's for sharing information, not drumming up book sales!