Swastikas, Roman Gear, modern reenactment (cont from market)

[Ironhand]

I don't know you Decimus, but I'm starting to like you. Its rare people learn from the past, but they damn sure dwell on it. Its nice to gloss over the issue and pretend it doesn't exist, but will peoples perceptions of the swastika ever change if nobody ever makes the attempt because we are too afraid of hurting someones feelings? Honestly, I think most of us if we really look deep down are not doing anything because we don't feel it is worth the personal hassle, criticism, and potential problems that would arise from something we don't feel is that important apparently. I'm not casting blame or pointing fingers since I'm not doing anything now because I have a security clearance that might be put in jeopardy.

The swastika symbol isn't going to die because there are too many hate groups out there. If we don't make any attempt at educating, we are letting those groups have it. I'm not casting blame, but it sounds a bit cowardly when you really break it down. There are groups out there that are taking the heat and getting falsely branded with rascist implications like the Asatru practitioners I mentioned. I guess they're on their own from the looks of it. Maybe in the end hate wins and it doesn't always just take the form of a swastika.

[Jona Lendering]

An interesting parallel that no one appears to have brought up yet: what to think of fasces? I'm sure several reenactors must have experience with using those ancient Roman symbols, which were also used by Mussolini.

I think it is easy for reenactors to explain why they use a seemingly fascist symbol: after all, it was Roman, and was a normal political symbol in the eighteenth and nineteenth century (e.g., in the United States, France, and Garibaldi's armies). Mussolini was just one of many users of that symbol. Something similar can be said about swastikas, I'd say.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

So I really don’t understand why there’s such an uprising now to force Deepeeka manufacturing a different model, that will cause problems for RAT-comrades in Germany or Austria and probably not be welcome on many events in other European counties? Especially, when the original didn’t have such a symbol? :roll:

Since I am one of those being implied here and since (I think) I know what I meant when I posted, I'd like to comment to clarify what I said due to the stated lack of understanding.

1. Deepeeka is currently producing a pugio made after the Melun version. It does not have a swastika (and no one was arguing it originally did). This Melun pugio was selected as a model specifically to replace two prototypes with swastikas, copied from the Obmann book. People who cannot have swastika, will be able to buy the Melun version. That's that. It is there. Their situation and choice is respected by the production of the Melun version.

2. Now, the question was asked (not a demand made) by some, including myself, whether it would be possible for Deepeeka - ALONG with the Melun version - to produce some of the pugiones like those two prototypes copied from the Obmann book. I thought, in that case, people who cannot have a swastika on their pugio, can buy the Melun version, and people who can and want to, would be able to by "the Obmann book" version. I thought the existence of both variants - with and without swastika - takes the preferences of a wider group of people into account.

I was not arguing for it - just asked the question. I did not want to exclude anyone - the Melun version is there. I did not anticipate the resentment the question caused, and I apologize for bringing it up.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

[size=150:3ppyzl4o]Actually, at one time I had this idea of making some kind of dagger scabbards that could be a kit. Maybe w/ differing kind sof plates or something. Some way to make everyone happy, plus make it so we're not ALL wearing the SAME dagger. And yeah, i want the swastika not only for luck, but to sorta educate -- I'll trade it for a sunburst or something if I go to Germany... :-) )
Best, Marsh[/size]

[Magnus]

I dunno, it seems to me that EVERY single time WWII is brought up, Germans have their noses rubbed inshit over it. Hell, in Japan, they act like it never happened except for the evyil USA dropping an A-Bomb on them. To me, they pretty much got away w/ starting the war in the Pacific.

Different culture there Marsh. And it's not fair to forgive the Germans and not the Japanese. As instigators of the war, it's not for us to say how the Germans and Japanese should or shouldn't conduct themselves after the fact. For some, it takes different amounts of time to heal the wounds of the past. No-one can say it will take 50 years, or 100.

We don't need swastikas on our gear. I'm all for freedom of this and that, but it shouldn't supercede common sense and that good old golden rule. If it's going to touch a nerve with some people, and you don't really have to have it on there, why not copy another pugio then?

As a personal note, I happen to love the swastika's shape. To me along with this one, it's the most geometrically pleasing symbol used in a military context that I've come across (the picture below is the japanese Tomoe Mon).

[Celer]

Salve,

I personally loath the Nazis and everything they stood for. Six members of my family were 'disappeared' from Holland in 1944 - we simply don't know which camp they were murdered in. My mother watched her school being bombed by a German plane, and was shot in the leg when she ran over to help. Many other members of my family were actively involved in fighting the save all of us from this evil.

I seem to have a knack for making German friends. They are some of the most wonderful people I have every had the privilege of knowing, and I can only have the deepest respect for a society that can produce genius's like the Bach family, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms and Mahler. So any political/social system that can turn such a gifted and enlightened society (don't forget Schiller and Goethe) into a system that created the Nazis should be treated with the fear and hatred that it deserves.

There are many today who eulogise the Nazis and what they stood for, and actively seek to re-instate them into mainstream politics (just look at Le Pen in France, and David Irving here in Britain). While they are marginalised at the moment, don't forget that so were the Nazis for much of the 1920's. Anything which can give them some means of encouragement or support must be opposed, just out of common sense and plain human decency.

Yes, the swastika was hi-jacked by Hitler (I understand that he simply leafed through a book on occult symbols and picked it out), and yes the Romans were not nazis. But, there are too many people who view the swastika from the modern viewpoint and are not prepared to be enlightened by well-meaning Roman re-enactors. Some will see the Roman use of the swastika as an endorsement of their own stupid neo-nazi viewpoint, and other will fear what it represented, and maybe have too much personal pain to want to listen.

The swastika was common throughout the Roman empire, but it was not ubiquitous, there are many other symbols which could be used in its stead without reducing authenticity, and that way you would not offend anyone. Just remember that there are many people alive today who went through the greatest horror in modern western history, we were not there, so we cannot fairly judge their viewpoint.

Symbols have power, that's why people use them, and now the swastika is irrevocably tainted with the evil of the nazi regime. No matter what we say, no matter how much we argue, this is what people will always think, they don’t forget, and that is a good thing. I am willing to surrender the use of a crooked cross as a Roman re-enactor symbol if it will help to ensure that people remember what the nazis did.

The nazis perverted so much to their own ends, music, literature, history, archaeology, science , even philosophy (Nietzsche’s writings, loved by Hitler & Co. were furiously edited after his death by his sister to remove any pro-Jewish sentiments, such as one of his last statements, ‘Today I am going to have the anti-Semites shot’) that it is only right that we should want to cleans them back to their original state. But is it worth reducing the power of the swastika as an anti-nazi symbol simply so that we can wear it as re-enactors? At the moment it has a blatant association with the nazis, and is easily identifiable. That, rather perversely, re-enforces its use as an anti-nazi symbol. I believe that we should not undermine this by confusing the issue. Let us keeps its power as an anti-nazi sign, so that future generations will not forget.

If anyone doubts the furious attempts at historical revisionism that are going around today, read ‘The Holocaust on Trial’ by DD Guttenplan.

Vale,

Celer.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sorry to hear about your relatives, and yes I too have met some great German people!
In fact, one of my relatives in Greece, who's uncle raised them after the death of their father,(both my fathers cousins) is married to a great German woman. He fought the Italians and Albanians, then the Germans who came to do what the former failed to do, and after that defeat, joined the resistance(pro-govt), then fought the communists after the war.

There is a whole can of worms there, but I won't go into that, other than there are other symbols which are hated for good reason in modern times!
I can't say how long we should take to return the use of this symbol to what it really was, but I notice many people run around with a Star and sickle in the world, without a thought or a word of censure on the crimes and atrocities perpertrated by followers of that doctrin!

Strange how peoples minds work on some subjects!

[Caballo]

I think Celer has put his finger on it with "symbols have power".

Unfortunately, in Europe, the swastika symbol is not only associated with the historical Nazis but also with present day far right movements. This also seems to be the case in the USA with white supremacist groups. An example from San Bernardino, California in 2003 :-

"The task force has also seized more than 15,000 rounds of ammunition; more than 75 firearms, many of which had been illegally converted to fully automatic; a half-dozen stolen cars; bulletproof vests; a pharmacopeia of methamphetamine, hallucinogenic mushrooms, steroids and marijuana; and enough swastika flags, Hitler youth banners, knock-off SS daggers, WWII German army helmets, and white supremacist propaganda to fill a Dumpster.

"Sixty years after the discovery of Auschwitz, I'm amazed we're still fighting this garbage in our country," said San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department spokesman Tom Freeman. "

Unfortunately, as in the urls that Tarbicus posted, there seem to be (in UK) re-enactors of German WWII who also have far right links. Not all- I'd like to stress.

I seriously detest the Far Right- and therefore would never wear anything associated with it. There are so many Roman symbols- palms, vine leaves, phalli etc- that haven't been hijacked that its not as if I'm not spoilt for choice!

I wouldn't dictate to others what they should or shouldn't do- your call. But not for me in any circumstancs.

[Titus Martius]

I agree with Celer, symbols really have power. In my country the swastika is symbol of evil commited on my nation. This symbol represents treachery of Munich, occupation, war and death for Czechs. Betrayal of allies and subsequent WWII broke czech self-confidence and moral, these wounds are still not mended (WWII also resulted in 40 years of comunist reign of terror, which is probably unimaginable for western Europeans). It is too early to allow free using of swastika. Furthermore neo-nazis would use this symbol more than re-enactors.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I was really thinking about bringing this one up, but I guess it makes sense: The swastika brings up the "bad side" of all the people that collaborated with the Nazis, so basically this is not an exclusively German or Austrian problem. I don´t mean to start a relativist argument here!

What I want to say is: The swastika should / is not exclusively be seen as an symbol of evil in Germany & Austria or of Germany & Austria, but as a symbol of intolerance, madness and evil per se all over Europe.

I understand how Germans feel, it's just I don't agree there is a need for them to. At least not most of them. Were you a member of the NSDAP? I bet not. We both know that most Germans weren't and yes, the Party DID have a major part to play int he start of the war, but... it would have happened ANYWAY. Hell, when the Wehrmacht started Operation Barbarossa, they found that the Soviets had pulled down all their border defences in preparation to attck West :-0

I suggest you to read some books concerened with this matter, so that you have the possibilty to change your opinion to one based on actual facts.

I dunno, it seems to me that EVERY single time WWII is brought up, Germans have their noses rubbed inshit over it.

I agree with you on that one, but I don´t really wonder how comes.

As far as I am concerned as a youger German citizen, so to say a mini-survey: All I can say about it: I didn´t harm anyone. My parent´s didn´t either. Neither did my grandparents. My paternal grandfather´s brother was legal officer in the KZ Dachau for a while, he has an own file in the Nuremberg trials. After the war he was a high official in the Bavarian state department for culture and education. :roll: My grandfather himself was interned in Dachau, for telling political jokes. My maternal grandmother´s father was hanged by the SA in 1933 in his kitchen in front of the family. He was a founding member of the social democratic party. His children were in the BDM / HJ. So what shall I make out of this for me? My historical conscience? Quite ambivalent. But first of all, it would be the Germans themselves who should complain, if they were to have a problem with it. I don´t see any reason, why you should get upset about it. My Generation has quite a different method of dealing with it: Usually by simply saying: "Yes, yes, I know, it was bad and all that, but actually, I didn´t commit any crimes, and the generation before me didn´t, so leave me alone with this, would you please." But instead of complaining the Germans apparently decide to simply try to show to the rest of the world what Germany has become since 1945. The soccer worldchampionship last year was a great opportunity, and I daresay that most of the international visitors had a different picture of Germany when they left the country than they had before they arrived. I guess this method works, and it is probably a better method than going around and propagating a new Germany (mainly for those who still haven´t found out that the Nazi regime no longer exists).
In fact I simply do not identify myself and my history with the atrocities of the Nazi regime. The active generation has almost died out, and that is good so. I see myself as a European and I hope sooner or later the concept of national states is recognised by the majority of my fellow Europeans as what it is: An overcome relict of darker times. But there I go into modern politics.
And then, I wonder: Isn´t this whole subject modern politics, and isn´t it one we actually do not want to have here on RAT? It may not seem to be modern politics in many countries, but, alas, in central Europe it sort of still is, so I vote for a close.

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And it's not fair to forgive the Germans and not the Japanese. As instigators of the war, it's not for us to say how the Germans and Japanese should or shouldn't conduct themselves after the fact. For some, it takes different amounts of time to heal the wounds of the past. No-one can say it will take 50 years, or 100.

Perhaps, but Japan gets to act like nothing happened and yet, Germany has to CONSTANTLY have it shoved in their faces? I think not.

We don't need swastikas on our gear. I'm all for freedom of this and that, but it shouldn't supercede common sense and that good old golden rule. If it's going to touch a nerve with some people, and you don't really have to have it on there, why not copy another pugio then?

Dude, I had some people come up to me once and tell me "You portray the Romans? Why THEY killed out Lord Jesus Christ! How could you" !?! :-0 I don't really do this for others. Not to really edjukate the publick... If I happen to do an event where the public is at, well peachy, but it ain't for them. They think we're whacky. And anyway, it ain't a pugio... Hell, I already have them on my gladius... and yeah, I'm ready for questions...

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

I understand how Germans feel, it's just I don't agree there is a need for them to. At least not most of them. Were you a member of the NSDAP? I bet not. We both know that most Germans weren't and yes, the Party DID have a major part to play int he start of the war, but... it would have happened ANYWAY. Hell, when the Wehrmacht started Operation Barbarossa, they found that the Soviets had pulled down all their border defences in preparation to attck West :-0

I suggest you to read some books concerened with this matter, so that you have the possibilty to change your opinion to one based on actual facts.

I'm sorry, but that offends me. You are acting like I'm some idiot who knows nothing about this. Perhaps YOU should read some books too. I'll give you two books: Hitler's Panzers East by R.H.I. Stolfi and another called The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II by Viktor Suvarov ([size=75:2ib4zccv]a new book by Suvarov, a Soviet defector--he's mentioned the same subject in his earlier books such as "Icebreaker"[/size]). These books clearly show that the Soviets were getting ready to attack West. Suvarov was a Soviet Intelligence officer before he defected and I beleive him. As for Stolfi, it's a good book and it's on the money. I love how any book not following the main-stream is called "revisionist history" it's not like this guy is the aforementioned David Irving ([size=75:2ib4zccv]whom I met once at a show in Baltimore... he was, shall we say, unfriendly[/size]).

[Jona Lendering]

In fact I simply do not identify myself and my history with the atrocities of the Nazi regime.

Exactly, and that is why I said that we can claim back (symbols of) our past. If we allow old symbols, however powerful, to continue to influence our behavior, history has become a nightmare. A nightmare, though, from which we can escape. In fact, that is -in my opinion- a part of what the study of history is about: to liberate ourselves from old interpretations and improve our knowledge of how we became what we are.

On the other hand, a reenactor is not forced to use a swastika, and depending on the situation, he can use other decorations without compromising historical accuracy. (On the other other hand: this does not apply to fasces.)

[Caballo]

And, to be fair, it is possible to claim back symbols. An example is the cross of St George, which in the 1960s/ 70s was mainly a far right symbol.

In fact England supporters in the 1966 World Cup used the Union Jack, rather than the English national flag.
http://www.spiritofsport.co.uk/images_versions/385.jpg

Now, at England football and rugby games, St George's cross is the dominant flag for England supporters.
http://youngpeople.pm.gov.uk/images/photogallery/04.jpg

But.....this was caused by thousands of sports fans- and a resurgence of Welsh, Scots and Irish flags/ national pride as well. A much bigger ask for other old symbols IMHO.......

And I agree, prob time to close this thread.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

A quick note as I need to go take something for this headache. I am NOT a nazi, I don't sympathize w/ their politics nor do I condone what they did. However, I AM someone who studies this stuff and have my own beliefs. Please, don't let anyone think that my fondness for the Hakenkreuz means I am a nazi. okay. To me, it's an old good luck symbol and I like it. Yep, it was used by the Nazis as a symbol. Other countries use symbols too.

I don't know if I should be posting here in this thread anymore, certainly not w/ a headache (makes me cranky).

How-about we leave it like this: I am gonna do what I wish, just like you will. I won't go to Germany w/ my Gladius, please don't come here and get mad or offended at me... How's that?
P.S. My Gladius plate :-0