Linothorax design/construction

[geala]

The only point for glueing could be the behavior of the shoulder flaps when open.

The same effect is demonstrated with quilting. The rigidity of the construction is controlled by the number of layers and the distance between rows of stitching. The closer the rows, the stiffer the end result. Take a look at modern kendo armour.

That is new to me and a very interesting information. But in the pictures of open shoulder flaps I know, no clear stitching in that part is shown. And generally the majority of the presumably linen cuirasses show no signs of quilting at all.

Perhaps a multitude of construction methods existed: hardened leather; leather with linen; quilted linen; linen without quilting, just stitched together at the borders; even glued linen.

[Paullus Scipio]

I'm afraid I have to concur with the consensus here - the idea of "glued linen" (AFIK ) appeared in Connolly's "greek Armies" and was subsequently followed by many ( including me, for a time !) and as Dan says, there is no evidence for it beyond this guess -and certainly it is highly unlikely that the artistic depictions are intended to show quilted armour - but just might be of something like the Jack shown in Chuck's photo - very nice reconstuction/impression by the way - congrats !
Still , as Archimedes points out, whatever the tube-and yoke corselet was made of , it was pretty stiff !
The key seems to be the way the epomides behave.
Can any reconstruction ( leather, glued linen, quilted linen ) reproduce the supposed 'springiness' ? Or even stand up convincingly,if they were simply thrown back ? I have asked this question before on other threads, so can those who have re-constructed spolades please tell us how theirs behaves ?

[Dan Howard]

Can any reconstruction ( leather, glued linen, quilted linen ) reproduce the supposed 'springiness' ? Or even stand up convincingly,if they were simply thrown back ?

Yes. Quilting.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm not saying I believe this is how it was made nor that I constructed this after much research on resistance but this is glued thick canvas.Couldn't linen behave similarly?Unfortunately i have not seen anything quilted to know how stiff it can be...
Couldn't it have been quilted with a layer of linen covering it to hide the stitching?
Also,there are indeed some(few) vase paintings that suggest stitching.One could have been this:

[Paullus Scipio]

Excellent post Giannis ! This has both an informative photo and a rare illustration of an Asiatic wearing what appears to be a quilted corselet.
Which also makes the point that Greek artists were quite capable of depicting quilting if they chose (the drawing skills of the pottery artists at this time are quite sophisticated and realistic ).
This would imply that the standard 'tube-and-yoke corselet' depicted on pottery is something else..... ( let's not get into 'individual artists' here)
There seems to be a dilemma for the reconstructionist wanting to use linen....quilted is more effective, but doesn't reproduce the appearance, glued has no evidence beyond Connolly's suggestion, but does reproduce the appearance. We do know that 'effectiveness' isn't the only or even main reason to chose a particular defence though.
Which means that Archimedes should probably go with something like Matt Amt's or Giannis' reconstruction.....I'm sure Archimedes would appreciate any construction tips, Giannis !

[geala]

Very nice picture, Giannis. Unfortunately it looks exactly as in the ancient paintings showing open flaps (unfortunately, because I don't like the idea of glueing. ).

A guy with a composite armour reconstruction with stitched shoulder flaps should post a similar picture.


A special ot question (not so much ot however) to Giannis: would you say that you could use a sling without any problems in your composite armour? In the overhand throw and in the throw horizontally over the head which starts with the pocket of the sling held in the erected left hand especially (because these methods often appear for Greek slingers)?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes,I think in my armour these would not be efective.It is very stiff and of course unable to make a holow.But i make it clear that it is not constructed very accurately.It has only four(!) layers of the thickest canvas I could find(similar to those used to make boat sails) but it reaches the thickness of 0.5cm.I'm sure however a similar construction with more thinner layers would be even more efective.

[Anonymous]

My linothorax is made of glued linen, with a leather core. If I store it flat, the epomides stand up just as in the art and, indeed, Giannis's picture. I do find that it doesn't breathe well, but I find my (unrealistically thin) gambeson doesn't either! I'm thinking of making a new one (linothorax)and sewing it together; I hope it does wick the sweat away.

[Dan Howard]

This would imply that the standard 'tube-and-yoke corselet' depicted on pottery is something else..... ( let's not get into 'individual artists' here)

Why? All this indicates is that two different artists did the illustrations. It is impossible to draw any conclsions from different illustrations unless it can be comprehensively demonstrated that both illustrations were done by thesame artist or that the same conventions were used. This discussion is getting very old.

[Felix]

Caution must be used when interpreting the painted surfaces of Greek armour, either to rule in or rule out a material. There are clear vase paintings of both helmets and shields with a "scale" pattern on the surfaces. This does not necessarily mean the Greeks ever covered Corinthian helmets or shields with scales; it does imply the surface looked like scales.

A quilted defence could certainly be covered with a smooth layer of fabric, or even leather, purely for effect; or it could be painted to look like scales. In a later period, there was a fair amount of medieval plate armour that was covered in fabric as a fashion statement.

[Paullus Scipio]

So, Paul, an essentially leather spolades also produces what we see on the pottery.........interesting !!

I suspect anything dense enough/hard enough to provide effective armour is never going to breathe well or even at all, so I think one just has to accept that ( and before someone says "mail" ,it is usually worn with a padding component, and is 'out of period' anyway )
Dan, if you start applying such rigourous criteria, then little or nothing can be accepted. As said elsewhere all we can do with so little hard information is proceed on "balance of probability." Otherwise, even if a fully intact corselet were found, one might argue that it is an exception, a one-off and not typical. ( whoops! Does the iron 'Philip' corselet from Vergina spring to mind? )
Any way, we are drifting off-topic. Can Giannis Matthew, Paul and others advise Archimedes with his construction, especially as he is going to attempt a difficult and complex composite technique ? I'd be interested too, as I am contemplating making one of these for my son's Hoplite impression.

[Anonymous]

So, Paul, an essentially leather spolades also produces what we see on the pottery.........interesting !!

I don't think we can say that; the leather core is only one third of the material. Having worked it (and a lot of other leather, in the past) I'm certain it wouldn't behave in this way, without the linen re-inforcement, even if it were the full thickness of the armour. Look at the way a two-foot-wide sheet of soling leather behaves. Further, if you wear leather, it quickly conforms to your shape and stays in it when released, moulded by damp heat.

As to advising Archimedes, I don't see that there's much more I can tell him. He has to overcome the dilemma you mentioned - paucity of evidence and division among those who might advise him - by making his own decision. However you make a re-construction, someone will always be able to carp at you about something. Personally, I don't aspire to being an Experimental Archaeologist and I'm not going to burden myself with the trouble and expense of using hand-made linen or home-made glue, for example. I'm not building something for historians and archaeologists to study, but something for use. It will be about the right weight, made from the right material and using a construction method which was possible in its day. If anyone wants to count the threads or debate the pattern of the weft, they should find an EA who's made one or, better still, construct their own - I look forward to seeing it in X years' time!

One thing that might help is this: I find the black leather trim I used, runs and stains the body of my linothorax and my chiton. Other people don't seem to have this problem - it could be that their trim is more colour-fast.
I would recommend thinking very carefully about trim and the colour thereof. Equally, I have little idea of how colour-fast natural dyes are, but I would play safe and only face the armour with coloured linen, leaving the rest natural. This will also save time and effort.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

That's how I made it.
I made a base of two layers canvas(that could be 8 layers thin linen)of a thickness of 0.25cm.This was one piece,with the pteruges and could be wraped arrownd my body.On that base I glued the four different parts,two for the sides,one for the dront and the back.Each piece's end was lined with a hem made of folded canvas,so it produces the effect you seen in the photo I posted,like many vases.The epomides was another four layers canvas trimked in the same way.These hem lines were one of the most difficult thing to do,as they had to be folded,ironed and finally glued in place.However I like the result and don't have problems like Paul has.I wish I had done the same with the pteruges,but at that time I fount it was a big ammount of extra work and I was afraid it wouldn't work...If I used leather instead it may be easier to make the hems in pteruges.
It needs A LOT OF MEASURING befor you do anything,use Matt's site for reference,try to make something that is as close as possible to the majority of vase and wall paintings,try to avoid fittings that are not in the period style(i found that very difficult,I ended with pommels that are in that style).Make sure the glue you use is good enough to keep the layers together,especially in the pteruges.Something importand:Make the body and the pteruges short enough so that when you sit,the pteruges do not touch the ground/chair behind you.Mine are slightly longer than I'd now want,that's because I wanted to cover sensitive spots...Avoid that,that's what vases show,too.
My armour is impenetrable by a kitchen knife,it could be penetrated by my spear,but I never tried it.Here is a Photo:
[img]
And Connolly's I used as a base:

[Paullus Scipio]

Many thanks, Giannis - those tips are most helpful !

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

From the same vase as the other picture I posted,just more clear.Don't you think it's more logical that they painted Amazons with the Persian style quilted linothorax?And the fact that Herodotos describes the Persian thorakes looking like "fish" means that the Greeks did not quilt their thorakes like the Persians?
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... nlinen.jpg
Khairete
Giannis