Linothorax design/construction

[Vishtaspa]

Paul, I find your summary in leather's thread superb.

But perhaps Sophocles' Epigonoi passage mustn't be discarded at all, we must be always careful regardindg greek tragic playwriters, in them we find a mixture of archaism and anachronism (just as we can see in vase painting mythilogical scenes, gods and heroes depicted in contemporaneus dress and armour. Also amazons are depicted ususally as persians or asians).

The reference of chariot (harmatos, as reads the fragment) is very homeric, but textile armour isn't very homeric at all (only two references to linothorex in the whole homeric corpus, for sure rare exceptions of concrete heroes, like Ayax Oileus), more homeric is bronze armour, shiny armour. An anachronism perhaps? a reference of usages from autor's days, like many times in tragedy, mixed with archaisms?

I know that this debate is old, and very discussed in this and leather threads, so I hope not to repeat things.

Regards

[Paullus Scipio]

INYIGO wrote:-

But perhaps Sophocles' Epigonoi passage mustn't be discarded at all, we must be always careful regardindg greek tragic playwriters, in them we find a mixture of archaism and anachronism (just as we can see in vase painting mythilogical scenes, gods and heroes depicted in contemporaneus dress and armour. Also amazons are depicted ususally as persians or asians).

...oh, I agree entirely...it is at the very least a faint possibility that Sophocles is mixing archaic and current practise, but as seen in the fragment of Alcaeus (writing before the introduction of Tube-and-Yoke corselet) 'linen' 'woven' etc are poetic/Homeric terms that crop up frequently in epic poetry. When taken with the complete lack of reference/mention elsewhere, it strongly indicates that the latter is more likely than contemporary armour being 'woven'.

It is a mistake to look at/examine individual pieces of evidence in isolation - one should try to look at the whole picture....... even if most of the pieces of this particular jigsaw are missing !! You, of course, have contributed a new piece, hence a laudes !!

[Hypaspist]

Paul and Other Scholars ,
What would you all suppose as adequate testing . of a " Tube and Yoke " Armour prototype ?? Ballistic of some kind ?? Just Functional ?? or Wear properties ?? Looking Correct ??.. I would like some input Please :roll: how to " Test " .I intend to use only Ancient technologies . But I will State a belief of Mine . That is that the property of the " Yoke " to Stand up and bend in a Smooth Curve to the Front , and having tension enough to be STRAPPED Down , I think is a Most important Function of the Physical property of Materials used in Ancient Construction and My Hopeful recreation of something at least plausible for this property . I think It is a VERY Important Feature ! One Property of processed Leather is the "Break In " hard leather with continued pressure and " Use " will soften , I believe this is a problem with the Alum tawed leather ?? Well Give me about two weeks hock: or there about !
Michael PechaceK Sr.

[PMBardunias]

Caesar apparently records the Veneti as using it for sails ! (it was also used in later periods for sailmaking)

One benefit of Alum Tawed sails is that the potash, alum is called potash, somehow acts as a fire retardant.

One Property of processed Leather is the "Break In " hard leather with continued pressure and " Use " will soften , I believe this is a problem with the Alum tawed leather ??

Alum tawed hide can be very stiff, but it is regularly worked to give a soft product by drawing it over a post. Its vulnerablity to water may be overstated since it has to be soaked for some time and a simple coating like bee's wax would protect it. I have come across boiling tawed leather in oil to harden it, but I am unsure that it is as amenable as tanned leather and I don't know what this does to the color.

It's use in boot-making as the famous "cordovan" leather means that it must be able to withstand wetness and weather in some fashion.

Its main weakness is that if it does get soaked, it will shrink and reharden in the wrong shape as it dries. How much depends on how tightly it was stretched during the curing process.

For the Bursaphiles, it rots easily in water there is little chance that we would find much in the way of archeological evidence.

[PMBardunias]

Well, in a classical sense, "bursa" is a skin stripped of, and "skutos" is skin in general (latin Cutis), and something made of leather (the root also has to do with shoemakers).

Is the latin term "Bursa", which I think means sack or pouch, related? Would Pollux's greek be influenced by the latin?

[hoplite14gr]

@ PMBardunias
It is a propability. We have many Hellenized Latine terns in Byzantium that followed the Romans, but please see the my earlier post on that.

@Hypaspist
"Balistic" armor tests By J.Hoffman and cutting tests by me in the first pages of this trhread.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

As I promised,and as is the name of the thread (design/construction), some photos. Most of them are some of the most relyable. The four first examples are from the Parthenon. Unlike the Siphnian treasure, none of them is identical to another. Most probably different artists made each sculpture,having seen different examples and having different models in front of them. There are other linothorakes on the Parthenon, if someone has clearen pictures of these or the other linothorakes,I'd be very interested. The 5th century linothorax is very rare in sculpture.
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1st

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2nd

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[Giannis K. Hoplite]

3rd

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4th

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

And last, i don't know exact date and place but this statuette must represent exactly the same construction as the lameral from the Ares statue I posted above

Khairete
Giannis

[Vishtaspa]

Thanks, Paul!

Well, in a classical sense, "bursa" is a skin stripped of, and "skutos" is skin in general (latin Cutis), and something made of leather (the root also has to do with shoemakers).

Is the latin term "Bursa", which I think means sack or pouch, related? Would Pollux's greek be influenced by the latin?

In this case, the latin is influenced by greek; latin Bursa "leather, hide, and then sack" is a direct loan from greek BYRSA. In classical latin there were many literary loans from greek. (Virgil uses Bursa in a famous passage from Aeneid)
In spanish we have "bolsa", french "bourse" and English "purse"!

Regads!

[Duncan Head]

And last, i don't know exact date and place but this statuette must represent exactly the same construction as the lameral from the Ares statue I posted above

Nice little statuette, Giannis!

Of course, in the "Lamellar and cataphract armour" topic over in the Roman forum, Ruben made the point that when this style of armour is shown in Etruscan paintings, the "lamellae" are depicted in the same colour as the pteryges and shoulder-pieces - so is it in fact lamellar at all?

[PMBardunias]

In this case, the latin is influenced by greek; latin Bursa "leather, hide, and then sack" is a direct loan from greek BYRSA.

I thought this was the case, so for me the question becomes was Hesychios' choice of greek word influenced by his familiarity, and that of his audience, with the latin term, i.e: did a greek loan-word in latin influence the choice of greek term used by a latinized greek!?

The only reason this might be important is that if true it might indicate that he is referring to an armor that is bag-like. An armor that slips over the head and hangs from the shoulders as opposed to the essentially two-piece tube and yoke, which I do not believe would be singled out for hanging from the shoulders since it seems to be able to be worn with the shoulders flapped up, even if only long enough to secure it.

To me the fact that the spolas "hung from the shoulders" and the author felt necessary to stress this point meant that it probably was not tube and yoke and in fact was being differentiated from such armors- which may still be made of leather as well. We have no guarantee of continuity of use of what is probably a slang term anyway, so Xenophon's spolas and that referred to at a later date may not be the same.

[Duncan Head]

The only reason this might be important is that if true it might indicate that he is referring to an armor that is bag-like. An armor that slips over the head and hangs from the shoulders as opposed to the essentially two-piece tube and yoke, which I do not believe would be singled out for hanging from the shoulders since it seems to be able to be worn with the shoulders flapped up, even if only long enough to secure it.

To me the fact that the spolas "hung from the shoulders" and the author felt necessary to stress this point meant that it probably was not tube and yoke

Curious - because to me it suggests the opposite! Tube-and-yoke does seem to hang from the shoulders, as opposed to being supported by a waistbelt or, errr, anything else. Even though some (not all?) such corselets do taper in at the waist, they don't seem to do so enough to be supported at the waist or hips.

as opposed to the essentially two-piece tube and yoke

And Jarva makes an interesting case for certain structural features of the tube-and-yoke suggesting that it was (or that some such corselets were) essentially one-piece, cut originally from a single piece of hide....

[PMBardunias]

Curious - because to me it suggests the opposite! Tube-and-yoke does seem to hang from the shoulders, as opposed to being supported by a waistbelt or, errr, anything else. Even though some (not all?) such corselets do taper in at the waist, they don't seem to do so enough to be supported at the waist or hips.

I think you underestimate how much of the weight was borne by the body. Since the armor is tied around the body there is no need for a belt- it is tied to the proper width. To me the fact that the shoulders were attached last when arming, and the relatively weak attaching thongs, point to a division of weight.

A benefit of such weight distribution would be in taking some of the weight off the right shoulder, which for much of battle is supporting an upraised dory. If you were to have the weight borne by both shoulders alone and equally, when your arms are down, the lion's share of the weight would shift to your right shoulder as you raised only the right arm. You would have to bear the weight asymmetrically when at rest if you tried to correct for this.

And Jarva makes an interesting case for certain structural features of the tube-and-yoke suggesting that it was (or that some such corselets were) essentially one-piece, cut originally from a single piece of hide....

By definition these would no longer be "tube and yoke". I have not read his argument, but many later representations have greatly reduced "yokes" and may have been slipped over the head. The form, though not function, of the yokes may even be ornamental additions, as in some early roman mail armors. Does he imagine them slipping over the head and securing down the side/sides, or simply slipping on?

In either case this type of armor clearly "hangs from the shoulders" more than the classic tube and yoke. Perhaps this is the target of the term spolas and may indicate that it is made form more supple tanned leather, since to me the tube and yoke is not ideal for flexible leather construction.

[Vishtaspa]

I thought this was the case, so for me the question becomes was Hesychios' choice of greek word influenced by his familiarity, and that of his audience, with the latin term, i.e: did a greek loan-word in latin influence the choice of greek term used by a latinized greek!?

umm, But I think he is referring mainly to a material, not a shape (and he seems to differenciate between two types of leather); The primary meaning of latin "bursa" is "hide, leather" too, being "bag, purse" a secondary (and no way classical) one, a tipical lexical resource (to name the thing for what it is made off, just as "doru" means a tree and then a spear). And he uses "bursinos", not "bursa" itself; "bursinos" is pure greek.

Regards