Linothorax design/construction

[Melkel]

Hi. Quite interesting discussion, I had to change some of my opinions :-) )
Few remarks:
1. Re: rawhide
I worked with rawhide quite a lot. You cannot make T&Y thorax out of one piece - he result would be unpossible to put on (rawhide is quite rigid) or, if bended many times to become more flexible, it would loose its protective quality. So you can either make plates from rawhide and put it on some more flexible material, or use tanned leather.

2. Re: eastern armour
I found very interesting piece of armour. Its Scythian, from 6th century BC, nowadays in Metropolitan museum of art, New York. IMHO it look a lot like some pictures posted in this thread.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I always sailed ot inderstand what piece of armour is that skythian plated one. How big it is. It looks like a sleeve to me...

[Melkel]

It's definitely not a sleeve :-) )
Material is hardened leather, it's 88 cm long. Supposed to be the best preserved iece of leather armour found. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any further info.

[PMBardunias]

1. Re: rawhide
I worked with rawhide quite a lot. You cannot make T&Y thorax out of one piece - he result would be unpossible to put on (rawhide is quite rigid) or, if bended many times to become more flexible

What if you used rawhide and purposefully made permanent bends along the seams of the box-like tube. Would this rended just the seams flexible or would such repeated bending lead to breakage?

Remember as well this armor is tied on around the body, so a tube could be somewhat rigid, in fact it probably helps for it to be so. This holds true for close-stitched quilting as well (thrown in for the sake of parity).

[Hypaspist]

Listen Gents ,
Any leather product will eventually Soften , at creases , Seams ect . when subject to stress . IF rawhide or similar leather where used for a "Tube and Yoke " Armour , it would be used as "PART "of , Not "MADE OF " . Any person familiar with the material realizes this . NOBODY Familiar with the material would ever submit the idea that it would be "cookie Cut " out of a " RAWHIDE " this never has been or would ever be a legitimate suggestion . IF protected between layers of Material or Leather and Bent as a Unit , It would maintain its Structural integrity for a extended period . AND would give you the same effect as seen in ART with the "YOKE " standing up . BUT I may add a word of caution so would many other materials .
Michael Pechacek SR.

[Hypaspist]

It would be Interesting to Call the MET about the Scythian Armour !! and Find out about the Piece! I for one Could see it as Rawhide , or Boiled leather Scales like the Scupture pictured a few Messages back of " MARS "
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Melkel]

What if you used rawhide and purposefully made permanent bends along the seams of the box-like tube. Would this rended just the seams flexible or would such repeated bending lead to breakage?

Haven't used rawhide this way for enough time to know for sure, but I suspect that finally breakage would occur. I'll trz it with a piece of rawhide on the weekend :-) )

[Paullus Scipio]

Petr wrote;-

Material is hardened leather, it's 88 cm long. Supposed to be the best preserved iece of leather armour found. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any further info.

.....I have come across that photo of the Scytian leather armour before. The long pieces at the waist are to allow for the typical scythian broad belt of metal plates ( see Rostovzeff, or Osprey "The Scythians" for example).
I have often wondered if the armour was 'wrap around' (note the ties,) or, pullover style ( as mentioned by Paul B.).....note the cloth (?)shoulders, above the square armholes, which imply this.The cloth 'backing' visible at the base of the 'skirt' also implies pullover to me.
The armour obviously had a yoke, now missing, to cover the shoulders ( see sources cited earlier), and so ( technically, at least) is a tube-and-yoke corselet, though of Scythian style and make, not greek.

Can any of our U.S. members contact the Met and find out more, particularly regarding the question raised regarding wrap-around/pullover?

[Hypaspist]

Paul M,
I have a show this weekend , but I will call the Met on Monday > I have talked to them before , about Medieval Armour , they are most helpful :-) ) I was in talks with Malta about doing some restoration on their collections . ( that was a Mediterranean Run around ) I am interested in this piece ;-) ) ))).. , Hide or hardened leather .. ?
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Paullus Scipio]

Thanks Michael, that would be great! D

...can't wait to see what you uncover - background and circumstances of the find, what else came from the grave - was there an associated helmet/greaves/belt etc? ....the materials, construction methods ( e.g. sewn on backing, rather than linked scales? )...whatever you can find out !! D

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

A bigger image

[Paullus Scipio]

Great photo, Giannis - looking at that upper tie, it appears to come out the front....so I'm beginning to think even more that it is of 'pullover' type.....in which case one wonders the purpose of the ties....oh well, Hypaspist/Michael may be able to tell us more next week....maybe rear views, or at least where the ties come from....

[Paullus Scipio]

For Michael/Hypaspist:-

This may be something you know/are aware of already, but there is some interesting information in the 'Re-enactment and Reconstruction' section on a thread called "Dura Scale Armour -Thigh Guards" on the subject of boiling wax 'cuir boulli' and comment on it as a means of water-proofing rawhide............

[Hypaspist]

Paul ,
I will Look , Hope to have time to call The MET tomorrow and get a lead on the Armor .. Looks like Scythian TUBE and YOKE , they of course had such .. usually Scale types is what they have found at least in the Ukraine.Also Paul could you write me a PM I have some Technical Questions on Helmets .
Well I have some Patterns Drawn , Just waiting for delievery of materials !
Michael Pechacek

[Paullus Scipio]

...can't wait, Michael.....If you PM me, I'll happily do my best to answer any questions on helmets or anthing else......