Linothorax design/construction

[Vishtaspa]

Khairete;

just more textual references to "linothorax", I think not yet discussed here:

An anonimous verse from Anthologia Palatina (Snodgrass thinks it can be dated in Archilocus' time, but I must read more about the dating of this poem; the greek anthology contains much mixed stuff)

-Book XIV, poem 73: "argeioi linothorekes" "Argives linen-cuirassed"

The poem contains archaisms (or deliberate archaisms) like genitive in "-oio"

-Strabo, 3.3.6: "(lusitanoi) linothorakes hoi pleious; spanioi de halusidotois khrontai..." "Most of the (lusitanes) are linen-cuirassed, a few use chianmail..."

-Xenophon, Cyropaedia, 6.4.2
"epei d' emelle ton linoun thoraka, hos epikhorios en autois, enduesthai..."
"When he (Abradatas) was going to put on the linen thorax, which is a costum/fashion of his country..."

regards

[Paullus Scipio]

just more textual references to "linothorax", I think not yet discussed here:

...I think you'll find all have been referred to at one time or another in the various lengthy discussions... :lol: :lol: :lol:
....though it's nice to have them summarised together.....and as you will realise they simply confirm what is known....linen corselets are known, and worn by Barbarians, but there is no reference to them being worn by Greeks in classical times, only archaic legendary times, such as Homer and other poems of legendary times..... :wink: :wink:

....though it is noteworthy that Xenophon refers to "...a custom/fashion of his country.." i.e. Persia, but evidently not a custom or fashion in Greece of the time....

[Vishtaspa]

Yes, it was just information in order to recopilate in this big thread. (with "here" I meant this thread) Strabo's refrence was mentioned in a thread of lusitans, and I think you mentioned Cyropaedia's reference in Cunaxa illustration's thread.

But I think the Greek anthology referece was never mentioned, as far as I know, and is another interesting piece for the whole picture (can be grouped perhaps with Acaeus and homeric references, but the "argives" as a people aren't linked in another place with "linothorax". Homer only uses the term with two individuals, homeric argives wear always bronze.)

regards

[geala]

Nice. The only problem I have with this usually is that it would be good armour for hot climates. Imagine the wearing of a very thick winter jacket in the hot summer. That's worse than wearing a metal armour. There were other advantages I think (light, flexible, cheap, available materials).

[geala]

As this is also a "leather thread": had we already discussed the find from Derveni tomb B, leather with bronze scales? Surely, but once again.

http://people.clemson.edu/~elizab/Maced ... tm#Derveni

[MeinPanzer]

Any further information on the Scythian cuirass from the Met?

[Chuck Russell]

I'm afraid I have to concur with the consensus here - the idea of "glued linen" (AFIK ) appeared in Connolly's "greek Armies" and was subsequently followed by many ( including me, for a time !) and as Dan says, there is no evidence for it beyond this guess -and certainly it is highly unlikely that the artistic depictions are intended to show quilted armour - but just might be of something like the Jack shown in Chuck's photo - very nice reconstuction/impression by the way - congrats !
Still , as Archimedes points out, whatever the tube-and yoke corselet was made of , it was pretty stiff !
The key seems to be the way the epomides behave.
Can any reconstruction ( leather, glued linen, quilted linen ) reproduce the supposed 'springiness' ? Or even stand up convincingly,if they were simply thrown back ? I have asked this question before on other threads, so can those who have re-constructed spolades please tell us how theirs behaves ?

just getting back to this thread sorry. we tested our jacks with 70 lb bows at 20 yards. broadheads bounced off my jack. bodkins stuck but did not go threw all of the layers. yes, these were sharp, well as sharp as you buy them anyways, period ones are unheat treated and sharpened etc for 15thc too.


question on the pteruges now that i've started making my linothorax. i made all of my layers the same thickness. should i just cut out some of inner layers of the pteruges? since i'm going to be adding a second layer staggered behind them? should i make the 2nd line of pteruges slightly longer to hang down below the line attach to the body? or even at the hem?

[Paullus Scipio]

Interestingly it is apparent that the 'new' Tube-and-Yoke corselet spread rapidly when it appeared......here is an Etruscan vase depicting them, as early as c.500B.C.....the yoke part is difficult to see, thinly outlined ( implying the artist was not familiar with it perhaps? ) but they are definitely classic Tube-and-Yoke.....

[Alexander Polemos]

a quick question: i know that i read somewhere not to use canvas, but if i used a more modern glue and canvas would it hold up to a beating?

im making one for SCA combat... so it has to be able to take blows. and canvas is cheaper If i can get enough money, ill get an authentic linen one for reenactment and recreation.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I have used canvas.It's ok. It gets rigid enough and it looks very much like linen. You probably read that in the 4 Hoplites site,connected to the Hoplite association.They actually said they don't know how it would work with the different materials they use.Leather core for instance.
Paul,very nice an rare vases!I think that 500 bc is not that early for the linothorax.It would have between 25-50 years to spread in all the greek cities and we actually don't know where exactly it originated in this form,do we?
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-

Paul,very nice an rare vases!I think that 500 bc is not that early for the linothorax.It would have between 25-50 years to spread in all the greek cities and we actually don't know where exactly it originated in this form,do we?

....it is two sides of the same vase, Giannis........and I was thinking 20 plus years was quite a short time from its first known appearance in Greece, to spread through the Greek world to the Etruscan, especially as the dating can only be approximate ( and might, for example, be 10-20 years earlier).
On the other hand, I have remarked before how quickly new weapons technology seems to spread in the mediterranean world, thanks largely to regular sea-trade.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes,I noticed late it was the same vase.And I agree that it was pretty easy for cities with sea trade to adopt "modern" effective equipment.And more so because armour was an individual hypothesis and each rich citizen would like to have the later technology probably with lesser cost.
What I'd like to know is when exactly the new type appeared in comparison with when it became popular in art.And only the fact that we have so great frequency of it's depiction in the 520's is a clue of how quickly it spread through Greece.
Khaire
Giannis

[geala]

I think, we have had a similar discussion already? Different opinions exist about the date of the first vases on which the new form of cuirass appeared. I believe in an more early appearance in the first half of the 6th c. BC, that would be consistent with Alkaios, writing of cuirasses and neo...lino. The time of the diffusion process would not be such a problem with this dating.

Another aspect: The cuirasses on the vase are painted in plain white. This is very striking. I used sometimes earlier the colour as an argument for linen as material, but this is no longer possible. When I was in Sicily a few months ago, I saw vases on which shoes were painted plain white. So white could also mean leather (if you don't want to speak of linen shoes, öhm...).

[Hibernicus]

BTW: if you are going to be anywhere near the SCA and have an interest in Lakonia... and Lakedaimones... www.spartanwarband.com

They are expecting to march out with close to 60 at the Estrella War in February '09

Hibernicus

[Dan Howard]

I used sometimes earlier the colour as an argument for linen as material, but this is no longer possible. When I was in Sicily a few months ago, I saw vases on which shoes were painted plain white. So white could also mean leather (if you don't want to speak of linen shoes, öhm...).

I have owned dozens of shoes made from canvas. Shoes can be made of wood and woven grass. Why assume that the only material the ancients had available for shoes is leather?