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Linothorax design/construction
#31
Nice illustration -but as to what it represents ( tubular quilting ? ) who can say ?
I have always understood HERODOTUS reference to "fish" to be an obvious reference to scale armour.
We are once again getting off-topic. What has this to do with construction ?
( other than a representation of yet another corselet variation )
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#32
It has alot to do with the construction.Archimedes said he's planning to do both glueing and quilting in the same thorax.This is one of the rare greek representations who can be tranlated as quilting.And is useful to anyone actually wanting to make an only quilted one.All pictures have to do with how you're gonna construct yours...
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#33
Fair enough - but the illustration is of an "eastern" corselet (albeit mythical amazon ).
This is consistent with the literary sources , which state that linen thorakes are Egytian/ Persian/ Eastern - there are NO contemporary or near - contemporary literary references to Greek corselets of this type, nor unequivocal artistic illustrations either, with the possible exception Of Jason Hoffman's example.
And I repeat, this thread is supposed to be about construction methods.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#34
Ok,but possibly I was wrong,possibly this is not an eastern type linothorax.at this:
[Image: dying_persian.jpg]
And to this:
[Image: GreekPersian3.jpg]
And I repeat,ancient pictures are one of the primary sources one should consider on how he would make his thorax.The way of stitching is one of the construction techniques,and I could not give a better advise on this than an ancient picture.
And,Dan,you should admit that this last picture is a point against quilting the greek linothorax.The same artist shows a persian quilted one with obvious stitching(very similar to those shown in the Alexander mosaic)and next to it a greek one without visible stitching...
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#35
Well well!It seems when the greeks wanted to show quilting,they could do it...
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#36
To Gioi :- I'm sorry to read that you think I am "prompt to talk but slow to think". Cry
I can assure you that such is not the case - the very opposite in fact. I am always careful to look up sources and to quote them wherever possible, and I can always support anything I say.
I think perhaps it is more likely that you may have misunderstood something? If you care to give specifically the post that led you to this erroneous conclusion, perhaps I can enlighten you as to the thinking behind it. Smile
I would think that someone who posts, then later deletes that post is more likely to guilty of "posting without thinking", wouldn't you?? :wink:
Especially as taking out a number of posts "shreds" the thread, and ruins the continuity for later readers, and therefore devalues the contributions of all.
The pot you have posted is most interesting, and as you say, appears to be quilted - but we must be wary when dealing with "mythological" subjects because such subjects give the artist a certain freedom to use their imagination. Even were it meant to be contemporary history, a quilted corselet would still be explicable as an imported or 'battle trophy' example from Asia/Egypt.- we can't really say where it was made or by whom.
How do you interpret the 'zig-zag' patterned corselet,Gioi, maybe painted ?,
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#37
I my opinion the postet cuirasses are clearly quilted ones. It looks like the medieval depictions of aketons/gambesons/jacks. Quilting in vertical lines or diamond shaped was very common.

I don't think we can so easily interprete every cuirass on a picture with a"mythical" theme as an uncommon one. At least when the used helmets, shields and weapons are common ones. Why should the artists especially have shown only "strange and outlandish" cuirasses composed with "normal" other equipment?

The zig-zag pattern could be a very crude depiction of scales (I don't believe this), or be painted or perhaps stitched to give a pleasant appearance as well as a stabilising function. The zig-zags of some of the (presumably) thick chitons and perizomades come to mind, I have to think about the possible conclusions.
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#38
Gioi,could you post the entire scene with the perisan thorax?It seems it's a reconstruction of the scene in the vase I posted above!
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#39
Thanks much!Though I hoped to see a phalanx Sad
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#40
Yes, a very "liberal interpretation" of the Marathon chrage.

Kind regards
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#41
Gioi,

Can you do me a huge favour and check the reference for the picture you posted from osprey's "marathon" i have searched all the collections (CVA and Beazley collection) and am drawing a blank on it, it is a very interesting peice and i would love to be able to include it in my research but wont unless i can get a good reference.

many thanks

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#42
Sorry Gioi, i meant this one

Taken by Osprey " Marathon 490 BC" (Munich museum fur antike kleinkunst 3171 - J. 890)

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#43
Back to the subject-it's been so long we've not debated about this :lol:
I just checked,Xenophon "Kyrou Anabasis" book 4 7/15-27:

"Εντεύθεν επορεύθησαν δια Χαλύβων σταθμούς επτά παρασάγγας πεντήκοντα. ούτοι ήσαν ών διήλθον αλκιμώτατοι, και εις χείρας ήσαν. είχον δε θώρακας λινούς μέχρι του ήτρου,αντί δε των πτερύγων σπάρτα μυκνά εστραμμένα"

My translation,for those who don't read ancient Greek:

From there they walked through the land of Chalybes for seven stations and fifty parasanges. These men whos land they were crossing were very agressive and ready to fight. They had linen thoraxes that reached to their genitals, and instead of pteryges they had ropes from sparta(a plant?)."

He is clearly separating these linen thoraxes from those the Greeks knew and which had pteryges.Previously in the same book he mentions the Spartan soldier that was killed when a Karducian arrow went through his shield and spolas.Spolas is something different than a thorax,and it's clear that when he says thorax he means a linen thorax.Metal thorakes were of course much more rare and the word thorax was used for both linen and metal.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#44
Giannis, we have had this debate before, so I will keep this brief:-
1) Xenophon was a military man, so when he uses a term, it is with exactitude, he means what he says.
2)'Linothorax' is a term only Homer uses - it is not found in Herodotus, Thucydides or Xenophon. To use it of classical greek armour is akin to calling a modern rifle an 'arquebus' !! :lol:
3) Xenophon, when using the term 'Thorakes' means it in the sense of 'body-armour' and more specifically, when he uses the word alone he is clearly referring to metal body armour i.e. bronze muscle cuirass.
4) Xenophon only uses the term 'spolas/spolades' to refer to non-metal greek armour and it is clear from the context, he means the tube-and-yoke corselet seen so often in Art, and by definition it is made of leather. ( see previous threads)
5) Xenophon only uses the term 'thorakes lineoi'(thorakes/body-armour made of linen) for Asiatic armour, such as the Chalybes you refer to, never for greek armour, to my knowledge.

To paraphrase what you wrote, it is clear that when he uses 'thorax' he means 'body-armour', and from context when he uses it alone, he means metal muscle cuirass( not least because the original greek hoplite body armour was the bronze cuirass).When he means something else, he specifies, thus 'thorakes lineoi' ( body-armour made of linen) Smile
Lastly, there can be little or no doubt that spolas/spolades means tube-and-yoke corselet of leather, by definition ( see previous threads).
All this is old ground, let us move on and not re-hash it, at least until some new evidence appears !! :wink: :wink:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#45
Hmm,the thing is that you take some things for granted(like that spolas is the tube and yoke leather thorax or that thorax means only metal muscle cuirass unless otherwise stated) and not everyone here agrees with these.Anyway,I'll leave the matter as you wish.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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