Linothorax design/construction

[Tarbicus]

Why should the discussion be stopped? Nothing's getting personal, nor are any RAT rules being broken. If some are finding it boring then don't read it. If others are saying they'll stop but start again it's no big deal, surely?

[Anonymous]

Why should the discussion be stopped? Nothing's getting personal, nor are any RAT rules being broken. If some are finding it boring then don't read it. If others are saying they'll stop but start again it's no big deal, surely?

I consider prevention better than cure. You might regard my post as a "pre-emptive strike". I'm still happy with it.

[Tarbicus]

Fair enough, but with each new post comes a tiny bit more info on some little aspect of the subject. There's no gain without pain.

[Anonymous]

That's true; I have been following the arguments and counters with interest, I just sense a touch of exasperation creeping in. I do think that this, and previous debates on the same subject, have proven one thing, which is that we can't prove either view. This is a personal opinion.

Incidentally, and this is to clarify for everyone, I wrote that I was in my role of Moderator to indicate my neutrality, not as a warning.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

One thing that came in mind...Xenophon says "spolades kai thorakes" for the cavalry armour of his troops?Then,what troops is he talking about?There was no cavalry in their original army.There would not be any special cavalry armour,only hoplite armour would be available in the middle of the Persian Empire.And surely hoplite armour cannot be intepreted as bronze muscled cuirasses for the majority!Probably Xenophon as a rich strategos had one of the rare such thoraxes(and thus nearly died running with a shield) but the rest of the thorakes was probably something else.Linen probably-and spolas would have been something else.Also,I don't know what ammount of these hoplites had any body armour at all.And in any way,lines has been "proven" to be very hard armour,so it would be considered heavy armour suitable for the noble cavarly men.This last one is pure guess,but wouldn't you agree?
Geala posted the poet I was refering to,Paul.Alkaios.
Paul(Moderator),I'm a bit confused,shall we continue the discussion as if never interupted? :lol: Well,I should eat my words in any case,for saying I wouldn't continue this debate,but I though that trace of evidence I originally posted,from Xenophon,was new land for investigation.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

We see the tube-and-yoke cuirass coming in use in the 6th c. BC. We have a list of hoplite stuff from Alkaios (should be Alc. fr. 54, I don't own this source myself), where he mentioned "thorrakkes...neo lino".

The "new" type of body armour came into use around 520 B.C., judging by artistic depictions. Alkaios lived on Lesbos, off the Anatolian coast around a hundred years before this armour appears ! Being a poet, and with only a fragment to go on, it is more likely he is harking back to Homeric references to Linen armour.....one thing's for sure, he can't be talking about something that wouldn't come into use for another hundred years !!

which can be interpreted as bleached linen

...or any number of other materials, including leather.....I don't say that it is necessarily though!!

We have sources for the cultivation of flax in Greece and we have trade with foreign regions where flax was grown. For me that is enough to conclude that at least a good part of the tube-and-yoke cuirasses were made of linen.

That is not logical - it begins by assuming 'linen' construction, and then says since they had linen it must be so.Exactly the same applies to leather! :lol: .....they grew wheat and olives too, why not postulate a cloth made of wheat for the construction ?

We have seen in the discussion that Xenophon used "thorax" also for non-metallic cuirasses

Originally, Hoplites wore only one type of body-armour made of bronze,(hence the famous expression 'men of bronze') so originally 'thorakes'=body-armour=bronze cuirass (just like cuirass means metal body armour in English) when body armour made of something else is described, it must be qualified, thus Xenophon's 'thorakes lineoi' = body armour made of linen( similarly, in English, we speak of leather cuirass, or linen cuirass - to distinguish from the original metal one.)

That means logically that the spolas is a form of thorax

=body armour! Leather body armour.

It could also be a form of jerkin which is sometimes shown in vase paintings

Which vase paintings are being referred to here ? There was no clear depiction shown on the other thread.

In Aristophanes "Birds" (933 ff.) the overgarment of a slave was also named as spolas. That could be a hint to a (leather?) jerkin for protection during hard work. Hesiod tells us that peasants wore a kind of leather garment during work

It is not impossible that these references are to old bits of body armour, but I suspect not.
I would postulate that'spolas' did indeed originally mean some sort of leather, protective, workers waistcoat/ jerkin, but that when the tube-and-yoke corselet (leather version) was introduced, what more natural than to call this protective leather garment a 'spolas' too ?

a quilted linen jerkin

...quilted linen is known as armour for Asiatics from other sources as well.

[PMBardunias]

As an aside, could you tell me what percentage of the weight of a well-fitted Lino-/Leathero-thorax rested on the shoulders and what on the hips?

[Paullus Scipio]

If you are serious about not chewing over old bones, one of you has to be the first to stop. I point this out in my role as Moderator.

Indeed, I have no wish to rehash previous ( and numerous!) posts on the subject of 'spolades'......
However, I hope that this thread is going in a different direction. Let us ignore 'spolades' and instead begin with a fresh approach to the material of the tube-and-yoke corselet. Just what evidence is there for thinking Greek Hoplites in the classical age wore tube-and-yoke corselets made of linen? Where did this idea come from ?
Let me give some background to this. We have artistic representation of a new type of flexible armour being worn by Hoplites from about 520 B.C. We have a number of sources for the period, the main contemporary ones being Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon (later sources include Plutarch, Diodorus,Pausanias and others). Of these, only Xenophon is a military man who can be expected to use military terminology with exactitude. In all the works of Xenophon,he never, not even once, refers to Greeks wearing linen corselets - only Asiatics. Does that not strike anyone else as odd ? :?
AFIK there are no specific references to linen body armour worn by Hoplites in Herodotus or Thucydides either ( though I confess I have not checked them as thoroughly as I have Xenophon) - one has only so much time, so I am hoping others can point to 'linen' references, if they exist. ?
If not, then.......Horror of horrors!! hock: hock: ......could it be that Greek Hoplites of the classical era wearing linen will turn out to be as much of a myth as the certainty ( commonly held until Russell-Robinson's work appeared) that Roman legionaries wore segmentata made of leather ?? hock: hock: :lol: :lol:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,you seem to move the universe to fit the spolas to the tube and yoke corselet.(and I'm sure you thing the same for us :lol: )Aristophanes wrote in the middle-late pelloponnesian war,by then the tube and yoke thorax had centuries of existance(more than one,anyway).Alkaios lived in Lesbos,go there and find anything else Asiatic at that time.He speaks to Greek audience,not only lesbians,and he speaks of an Asiatic type of armour that at that early time no Greeks would be aware of?
Cattle-breeders were not a frequent job in Greece.Meat was rare and very expensive,food only for the rich.Were does all that leather come from?But this is not a strong arguement anyway.
I was one of those who strongly supported that all the vases were showing the chiton itself.For many of those I still insist,there were some,though,that are still debated and a leather jerkin cannot be rulled out.
Homer(8th cent.bc)speaks of "linothorakes".Alkaios(7th c.bc) speaks of "thorakes linoi",in sculpture and vases there is a "new" type thorax that could very nicely be linen(6th c.bc and there are references in later classical times of "thorakes linoi"(Xenophon),and also ther have been found traces of linen armour from the late Mycenean times.It seems that linen never stopped being used in all that time.But for you in classical times,when the tube and yoke corselet dominates in art,the Greeks were using leather,that only appears one time identified as so-in a much much later Pollux,who has Xenophon as his source,like us,and while Aristophanes puts spolades to slaves!...
Khaire
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sorry Paullus,I was typing when you posted the last message with the "new approach"

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

As an aside, could you tell me what percentage of the weight of a well-fitted Lino-/Leathero-thorax rested on the shoulders and what on the hips?

It strongly depends on the construction.Mine perfectly fits my body and could be some cm wider(only in fear for the years to come :lol: ).I'd put about 30% of the waight to the shoulders.This is for my armour.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

One thing that came in mind...Xenophon says "spolades kai thorakes" for the cavalry armour of his troops?Then,what troops is he talking about?There was no cavalry in their original army.

That is quite right, Giannis ! But you should read Xenophon more fully.
After Cunaxa, the Ten Thousand find themselves harassed by Tissaphernes with about 400 missile troops (slingers and archers who outrange the greek 'akontistai'=javelin throwers) and 200 cavalry, who ride up and hurl javelins at them, then ride off with impunity.
Xenophon proposes that they raise slingers of their own from the Rhodians in their ranks, and since these use lead bullets, they will outrange the Persians.He also propose they raise some cavalry.
That night, 200 slingers are raised, and the next day some 50 horses and riders were passed fit for service. Because they are unshielded, they need body-armour protection, so they are given breastplates(Thorakes) and tube-andyoke-corselets (spolades) - which must be donated by Hoplites - and Lycius the Athenian is given command.

And surely hoplite armour cannot be intepreted as bronze muscled cuirasses for the majority!

Indeed not ! Xenophon's preference elsewhere is for Bronze cuirasses for cavalry, but the inference here is that fewer than 50 were donated, so the rest had to make do with 'Spolades'.

.Also,I don't know what ammount of these hoplites had any body armour at all.

Obviously many did. It is something of a myth that unarmoured Hoplites appear later. It is clear that Hoplites without body armour had always existed. It is Art that changes, rather than equipment, so the idea that Hoplite equipment got lighter in the sense that body armour was abandoned, is really not provable and rather unsustainable.

This last one is pure guess,but wouldn't you agree?

Not really.Xenophon recommends the heaviest protection for cavalry, and the 'Thorakes/bronze breastplate' is his first choice ( see "On Horsemanship" )

new land for investigation

.......yes, that is where we want to go ! D Surely we can all agree on this ??

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Any reply to my-a bit aggressive I admit- other post,about the continuous use of linen armour by the Greeks, and the other thoughts?

[Paullus Scipio]

PMBardunias wrote:
As an aside, could you tell me what percentage of the weight of a well-fitted Lino-/Leathero-thorax rested on the shoulders and what on the hips?


It strongly depends on the construction.Mine perfectly fits my body and could be some cm wider(only in fear for the years to come ).I'd put about 30% of the waight to the shoulders.This is for my armour.
Khaire
Giannis

Xenophon endorses what Giannis says ! (at least for cavalry)

" We say, then, that in the first place his Thorakes must be made to fit his body. For the well fitting thorakes is supported by the whole body, whereas one that is too loose is supported by the shoulders only, and one that is too tight is rather an encumbrance than a defence." (think having to spread your hips to ride - Cavalry cuirasses are more splayed in the hips than Infantry ones.)
(Xenophon "Art of Horsemanship" XI.13-xii.1 )
As a rough guide, bronze muscle cuirasses, being heavier tend to sit on the hips , more than the lighter tube-and-yoke corselets, which tend to hang from the shoulders, especially if loose, by virtue of their cut.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I had that in mind Paul,when i was replying.I don't have this whole text.Isn't Xenophon saying at some point that the cuirasses with pteryges are more appropriate for cavalry?Or am I mistaken?
Later metal thorakes for cavalry were wider at the hips,as you doubtless know.
What would we do without Xenophon! :lol: