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Linothorax design/construction
#1
Khairete!

OK, so I'm making a linothorax...I've read all the linothorax threads, the leather armor threads, the padded armor/subarmalis threads, and the one on armor penetration and resistance. There is a LOT of information there, and in the process I've had to re-evaluate things several times. The sad thing is, in spite of all the research and experimentation, the linothorax remains something of an enigma, requiring a reconstructionist to improvise based on speculation and hypothesis.

I decided to use linen for my linothorax...as several others have pointed out, why call it a linothorax if it isn't made of linen. Quite a few modern reconstructionists have used leather, but this often seems to be motivated by a desire to ease/speed up construction, or for reasons of economy (they had the leather and didn't want to spend $$ on linen). The arguement that the ancient greeks wouldn't have grown linen seems very weak...after all, flax is fairly easy to grow (I've done it) and it provides food, fiber, and oil crops. Flax seeds and flaxseed oil are edible and provide important nutrients (B-series vitamins, potassium, magnesium, zinc, and omega3 fatty acids). Flax fiber is much easier to process than cotton, has a MUCH longer and stronger staple, and is one of the few vegetable fibers that does not lose strength when wet. Linseed oil is an excellent wood finish/preservative, and the flowers and roots of the flax plant can be used to make a blue/green dye (this is why I've grown flax...my wife enjoys dyeing with natural dyes that she processes herself...she also likes cooking from the garden, so I can vouch for the edibility of flax seeds Big Grin )

The second major question is whether to glue or quilt the linen. Experimental evidence suggests that quilting is superior in protection, and several very knowlegable persons have opined that glueing was never used. However, I hesitate to accept this as fact...mostly because of the huge body of artistic evidence. Certainly, quilting multiple layers of linen can result in a very stiff fabric that will give you "springy" epomides, but this type of quilting is also very visible and distinct...and while I am well aware of the pitfalls of using artistic evidence, the ancient greeks were NOT shy or hesitant about showing details of fabric and drapery in their art. The fact is that most depictions of linothoraxes do not show indications of quilting. I would also note that the placement and length of the pteruges indicate something stiffer than quilted fabric (and if you're quilting it, why not use pleats and gores for flexibility rather than separate pteruges?)

Glued layers of linen result in a much more rigid material (while still remaining at least somewhat flexible). Tests show this actually degrades the defensive properties, but IMO would have some advantages. Blows and impacts that did not penetrate the armor would be less likely to bruise, as it would spread and diffuse the impact trauma more. Stiffer armor also has more of a "crumple zone" factor to absorb impacts (and unlike metal corselets, glued linen could be "popped" back out easily, possibly doing so by itself). Finally, IMO stiffer armor would be more comfortable in the press of close order combat, especially if you subscribe to the theory of othismos (which I do!)

It did occur to me that one could combine the two techniques, making the linothorax with the outer layers glued and the inner layers quilted. The more I considered this, the more attractive it seemed, so I whipped up a quick test sample (four layers glued, one transition layer that was both glued and quilted, four quilted layers, all layers turned 45 degrees from previous layers...I say quick, but this actually took a while to do). Then I tested vs 9 layers unquilted, 9 layers unquilted but turned 45deg, and 4 layers glued and turned (it takes a while for glue to dry, so 4 layers glued was the thickest I had at the moment...I'm glueing up more test peices now). I put the test pieces on a block of dense foam used in shipping electronics, and attempted to punch thru them with a T-handled awl. I could punch thru the 4 glued layers fairly easily, and also thru the 9 unturned layers (tho not very deeply unless I continued to PUSH). I could not punch thru either of the other pieces and could only PUSH thru by using both hands and pressing HARD. The composite glued/quilted peice performed quite well, better than I had thought it would, and I am preparing bigger, thicker samples to test.

I had earlier decided to glue the linen on a round form, as described by Matthew Amt, to prevent any problems with delamination, and had even started building a rig to make construction easier, but the decision to use a composite glued/quilted construction made me reevaluate. I had noticed that Peter Connolly, in Greece and Rome at War p58, shows the linothorax 'body' as being constructed from front, back, and side sections or 'plates', and many of the better-looking modern reconstructions also use this method. Since I am using a quilted 'core,' it will be much easier and cheaper to make 'plates' and attach them to the core, rather than gluing up one long piece (especially since I do plan to rotate the grain of the fabric 45 degrees with each layer).

I've noticed that most people seem to make their linothorax in white, but I'm strongly considering having my wife dye the linen scarlet with some cochinial dye she made, and triming it in black (walnut husks with an iron mordant). I believe these dyes (or a very near equivalent, such as kermes instead of cochineal) would have been available to the ancient greeks.

I would also like to use pteruges around the upper arms/shoulders, but am not sure how to attach them (surely not to the epomides, eh?)

Also, did anyone ever test the salt treatment of Diaz (which was for cotton) on linen? What were the results?

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading Big Grin
Archimedes
Wesley Guillory
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#2
Very interesting and demanding a laudes.

What glue did you use? What kind of linen (weight and structure)? Was it woven with the hand? Could the glueing, as you did it, explain the straight-in-the-air habit of the shoulder flaps?

In the vases with black figure technique much labour was made to show the new composite armour in white (which must not mean plain white in reality), so dyeing it black would be not my first thought. Pink, yellow, red, purple, would that not be better?
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#3
Quote:The second major question is whether to glue or quilt the linen. Experimental evidence suggests that quilting is superior in protection, and several very knowlegable persons have opined that glueing was never used. However, I hesitate to accept this as fact...mostly because of the huge body of artistic evidence.
Where? There isn't a single piece of artistic evidecne that can be interpreted as glued linen. Unless you can demonstrate that every illustration done over a period of several centuries were done by the same artist or at least obeyed the exact same conventions then this argument is flawed.

Quote:Glued layers of linen result in a much more rigid material (while still remaining at least somewhat flexible). Tests show this actually degrades the defensive properties, but IMO would have some advantages. Blows and impacts that did not penetrate the armor would be less likely to bruise, as it would spread and diffuse the impact trauma more.
There is absolutely no difference regarding blunt trauma while cuts and thrusts are resisted more effectively by quilting.

Quote:Finally, IMO stiffer armor would be more comfortable in the press of close order combat, especially if you subscribe to the theory of othismos (which I do!)
Not really. Glue negates one of the primary reasons for using linen in the first place. It allows the body to breathe. Gluing the layers together prevents the linen from wicking away sweat.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#4
Dear Wesley

Plese have the patience to go through this links:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... linothorax

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... linothorax

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... linothorax

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... linothorax

Kind regards
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#5
The op said he read all the threads. Big Grin And I like the tests, they were a bit different than those in the other threads.

I concur with Dan that pictural evidence says nothing about glueing or not. The only point for glueing could be the behavior of the shoulder flaps when open. It could be better explained with the use of some hard and flexible materials as backing for the linen, like leather or thin bronze sheets.

Wether a partly glued linen cuirass could help against slow impact and pressure traumata should be tested. The stiffer the material the better the dispersion of the energy. So why should a soft linen armour perform the same as a stiff linen armour?
Of course it depends on the stiffness. If it's totally stiff, on the other hand, why not just use bronze?

The breathing qualities of multi-layered cloth garments are overestimated in my believe. Is it not less comfortable to wear a breathable linen armour than a metall armour in hot temperatures? (Never wore a Greek linen armour, just a gambeson.) If glueing could bring the different layers together and so eliminate the ability to catch hot air between the layers a glued armour could perhaps be more "cool" than a quilted one?

But in the end the reasons to use glue are not very convincing. Why making an armour stiff if the armour's material protection qualities are the better the softer it is? Cloth armour needs the ability to absorb energy through the bending and moving of the fibres. So softness is the leading principle.
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#6
i have a 25 layer 7oz linen jack for my 15thc group. at that thickness it doesnt breathe much hehehehe. oh and its quilted not glued. heres a pic for reference:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image ... ull/64.jpg
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#7
What are you wearing underneath it?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#8
Quote:The only point for glueing could be the behavior of the shoulder flaps when open.
The same effect is demonstrated with quilting. The rigidity of the construction is controlled by the number of layers and the distance between rows of stitching. The closer the rows, the stiffer the end result. Take a look at modern kendo armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#9
Quote:What are you wearing underneath it?

4 layers of 5 oz linen arming doublet. quilted.
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#10
So you are wearing nearly 30 layers of linen? No wonder that it doesn't breathe very well.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#11
Quote:So you are wearing nearly 30 layers of linen? No wonder that it doesn't breathe very well.

well its period for 15thc Smile http://www.replications.com/greys/Stand ... /Jacks.htm Smile so its all realitive. still i dont think i'd want all that glue around me. ewh smelly glue ehhehe
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#12
wow! I always thought the mail was worn over those sort of things!

As far as stiffness goes, muy subarmalis for my seg is quite stiff, being made of layers of quilted material! It is almost like armour in it self(well not quite) Big Grin
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#13
Wolfgang: I used Elmers wood glue...I know this isn't authentic, but my father owns a cabinetshop and buys the stuff in huge buckets, so I can get lots Smile Glue would definitely explain the stiff epomides, its alot stiffer than quilting, while still remaining flexible enuff. OTOH, I must admit that I don't know of any ancient adhesive that would work as well as the modern glue I'm using.

I have two kinds of linen I'm using, neither was handwoven. Both appear to use a standard 1over1under weave. The lighter fabric is 9.5oz and has a very smooth finish, this came undyed (natural) and was a beigeish color. The heavier fabric is 18oz and has a very textured finish, with the individual threads being much coarser. The heavy linen came dyed a hunter green that is almost certainly a modern artificial dye.

My wife dyed the lighter fabric with some cochineal dye she made...it came out a lot more vividly red than I really wanted, so she ran it through an iron mordant bath after dyeing and it came out a very nice dark crimson. (BTW, this will be the main color of the linothorax, I'm thinking of black for trim...you know, around the edges of the pteruges and epomides, etc.) Although the ancient greeks would not have had cochineal, kermes is a nearly identical dye (not quite as intense, so you'd have to use 50% more dyestuff) that apparently was used around the Mediterranean since the neolithic period.

I must say, I really like linen...its been so thoroughly replaced by cotton that I'm not sure I've ever had anything made from it until now...its very comfortable, and strong. I have a good pair of scissors I use for cloth...usually, even with denim, I can just 'zip' thru fabric with them after the inital cut...not so with even the light linen, and for the heavy linen I ended up resorting to my pinking shears!

Archimedes
Wesley Guillory
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#14
Chuck: I really like your reconstruction! Laudes to you! (Of course, I especially appreciate that it vividly illustrates some points i'd like to make! :twisted: ) Did you rotate the grain of the fabric between layers, or perform any other treatments to strengthen the fabric? Did you handstitch it or use a machine? Did you quilt all 25 layers at once, or did you do it in sections? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm looking for all the pointers I can get... Big Grin

Dan: I wholeheartedly agree, there is no evidence for glueing...but there is TONS of evidence for SOMETHING that is more rigid than quilting. Yes, tightly quilting many layers of linen with close-spaced rows results in stiff fabric, which can give 'springy' epomides...but it is still too flexible to require pteruges! Look at the reconstruction Chuck posted...it is MUCH longer than a linothorax, and is made of 25 layers quilted, but it doesn't have or need pteruges! Why would you divide up your armor into pteruges (that cover your guts, not your 'nads!) if you didn't HAVE to? Also, looking at Chuck's pic, you can clearly see the vertical pattern of the quilting, even tho the sun is behind him and he's in the shade...this kind of patterning is exactly the sort of thing greek artists liked to show, yet we don't see much of this. Finally, many artists, especially later ones, liked to show dynamic poses with lots of bending and twisting...quilted armor will 'bunch' in the direction of a bend, but the linothorax is ususally shown as stiffer than that. I really do understand that we must be very careful about relying on art as evidence...but I'm not tying this to one piece, one artist, one 'school' or convention, or even one 'period', I'm talking about the entire body of ancient greek art showing linothoraxes.

Now, I'm certainly not argueing against quilting...the tests reported by you and others, as well as what I've done so far, have convinced me of it's defensive advantages. The ancients certainly weren't dummies, they'd have wanted the best armor they could get. But I do think that there was something more rigid than quilted linen on the outside...if it wasn't glued linen, maybe it was leather? very thin metal?(why scales then...maybe patterns etched into the metal instead of real scales?) Ehh...I'm going with glued linen on the outside, quilted linen on the inside, and hoping that the 'lamination' of the two type generates a defensive advantage. (My early tests showed some promise for the combo!)

I would appreciate any advice or insights you might have about the quilting itself...I've been doing it with a running stitch, do you think a backstitch might be better/stronger?

On that note, I must admit that both my wife and my son, seeing me work on this, have made witty remarks about 'the fearsome warrior, girded about with layers of cloth, armed with his terrible needle!' or something to that effect...Tongue

Archimedes
Wesley Guillory
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#15
Hi there Archimedes, As far as the quilted linen argument not being depicted in art, the really early ones 560 to 520 bc tend to show a diagonal cross pattern an quite a few have what appears to be stitching in regular pattern indicating a type of quilting, again nothing concrete just what looks like quilting.

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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