Linothorax design/construction

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I've seen no evidence for glued armor. Now that I've studied it, I'm actually somewhat amazed that the idea took hold based on nothing.

Agreed,there is more evidence for quilted armour in antiquity,but the idea of glue took hold because of an important factor.No stitching is ever visible in vases and sculptures.Not even for the edges of the armor.We could say that there was an outer layer of glued linen,but this is again speculation to support the quilting idea.
I'm not taking a thesis for or against quilting here,but those thoughts are still basic in everyone's minds,and the fact that the debate is still alive does prove that there are some strong points against both theories.
I've even read here that gluing is so much supported for the one and only reason Connolly was the first to suggest it!
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry, I was trying to take a back seat here, but this is sooo..ooo true !

I've even read here that gluing is so much supported for the one and only reason Connolly was the first to suggest it!

In fact, it's the only reason so many of you think that Greek Hoplite cuirasses were linen at all !! :evil: :twisted:

[geala]

Perhaps in the future everybody will think of Greek armour as thin linen with bronze plate inserts? :wink:

The idea is so new to me (although I read about the thought that the shoulder flaps had bronze plates in it -springiness) that I'm really baffled.

I will take a look to all known armour types with plates in cloth. As far as I remember now nearly everywhere the fastening devises are clearly visible (with the exception of some 13th/ early 14 th AD cloth/leather covered plate armour). To get it right: you think that the plates were not fastened with rivets or something similar but inserted in pockets (from within, removable?), like modern ceramic plates in body protection vests? How were the linen parts put together? Glued or stitched/quilted or just several loose layers? Is it not a very complicated protection compared to the simple plate and strip compositions of the Italian and Spanish people?

Paul M, if you were right, the re-enactment scene will have an even greater problem than now with tube-and-yoke armour. :lol:

[Dan Howard]

Although there are possibilities for why you would armor the sides of your armor more than the front, the pectorals seem to indicate that the priority is reversed.

I already gave one likely reason why scales were on the sides and not the front. At least some linothoraxes were double-breasted. One side wrapped around the other and fastened at the side so that two layers protected the front. This construction almost certainly did not involve solid plates.

[PMBardunias]

At least some linothoraxes were double-breasted.

I agree for the image you posted- the shoulder tabs are the tip-off, but I only know of a few images that can be shown to portray this. In my opinion the vast majority of images where the hoplite is seen to bring two flaps together in the front are the artists way of showing the hoplite fastening them together, not overlapping them. Perhaps they twisted the body of the armor around them the way women do when fastening their bras.

I base this on the fact that in some images, both flaps being brought together are covered in scales. I don't think you could superimpose two layers of scale armor so tightly without the scales ripping up the backing of the outer layer.

[PMBardunias]

To get it right: you think that the plates were not fastened with rivets or something similar but inserted in pockets (from within, removable?), like modern ceramic plates in body protection vests?

No, the plates would have been fastened at their outer edges, where we see lines on the linothorax or decorative borders. They would be "removable" in the sense that the plates could be put into a new shell as the old wore out.

This may confuse more that explain, but I think the idea was similar to Eastern armors where we see large plates held together in a matrix of chain mail. There is an armor called Char-Aina or "mirror armor". Often this fit over mail and was fastened by straps in a manner analogous to the Samnite plates, but the shape is exactly that of the "box" portion of the Linothorax. In other armors these large plates, or many small plates are held together with chain mail without overlapping (bad picture below, but you get the idea). Not having chain mail, which is essentially a textile, the greeks may have achieved the same effect with linen (or leather).

If the plates are there then they are also often pierced by the buttons used to fasten the shoulder flaps. I've always wondered why the shoulder flaps are fastened so low, sometimes down on the abdomen. If fasteners were placed so as to go through metal plates that needed the most support from the flaps, this might explain it.

How were the linen parts put together? Glued or stitched/quilted or just several loose layers?

Not glued unless I see some more evidence. The lack of external texture can be explained by facing of linen or leather. Beneath the plates we might expect quilted padding more than hard layers extensively stitched, but I can imagine an evolution in the quilting itself becoming more resilient as it went from covering areas without plates and holding them in place to taking the place of plates.

Is it not a very complicated protection compared to the simple plate and strip compositions of the Italian and Spanish people?

A problem that has not escaped me, and I don't want to fall back on the ubiquitous "fashion" excuse. You can see that a similar thing occurs with the eastern armor- some worn over the mail, some as a part of the mail, though that brings us no further because I don't know why they did it.

There would need to be some study of this, but it's possible that the italian examples were getting heavier- from simple pectorals to complex harnesses (one pectoral disk to three??), while the Greeks were getting lighter, from bell cuirasse to linothorax.

Also, what do we know about iron in greek armor? I admit to not knowing of its use extensively. If greeks were to go from bronze armor to iron, they may have needed a new form to utilize it.

[PMBardunias]

For any who have never seen a Char Aina.

[Tarbicus]

For any who have never seen a Char Aina.

Ah. That looks familiar....

[Paullus Scipio]

Ah. That looks familiar....

...well it would, wouldn't it, to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies ! :wink:
Human anatomy is the same the world over....the Japanes box-yoroi also looks like this, and is often cloth-covered metal to boot !....parallel development - doesn't mean greek hoplites discovered Japan.... D lol:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

http://manningimperial.com/item.php?ite ... =2&c_id=35
Note that the irib plate to the front is double.

[PMBardunias]

the Japanes box-yoroi also looks like this, and is often cloth-covered metal to boot !....parallel development - doesn't mean greek hoplites discovered Japan

No, but it does mean that at least somebody else found such armor functional. This idea first solidified for me when Dan showed me densely stitched Kendo armor as an example of how stiff linen could be made. Even in these sport armors, although the shoulder protection is quilted, the thorax is protected by stiff plate (bamboo slats or fibreglas, but modelled after steel armor). A little cut and paste and you get the Kendothorax:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Perhaps something like this influenced you,also,Paul

[salimbeti]

To what time are the findings from Thebes dated?

The two linotorax large remains were from a Mycenaean/proto-geometric cemetery near Patras (in the thebes arsenal some bronze elements of cuirasses have been found)
In these two linotorax, dated around 1050 BC, Me and D'Amato have been able to count at least 10 layers.
Also an embroider part of these linotorax survived, these parts look like the embroided edge of a garment shown on a fresco from Pylos dated around 1300 BC even if more likely the Patras linotorax was more elaborate in design respect to the Pylos garments.
These two linotorax have been foun on top of two bronze caulderons containing human cremations remains, weapons, personal objects and pieces of leather.
Just to have an idea of the embroided edge the images of the fresco from Pylos is shown in this page
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour2.htm

Regards
Andrea Salimbeti

[PMBardunias]

Perhaps something like this influenced you,also

Actually, no. That would be analogous to the scaled sections- the greeks just put them on the outside.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey,welcome Andrea!
Thanks for the info!So,you've examined the linothorax parts.I noticed you used this name...so you do believe it is part of a linothorax and not folded linen.No pictures I suppose,huh?
How big the parts were?And you said they come from two different excavations?Two separate thoraxes?
Khaire
Giannis