Linothorax design/construction

[Tarbicus]

So you're pre-judging again.

Here's one of my favourite quotes: "Only fools and children judge work half-finished."

[Paullus Scipio]

Tarbicus said:-

So you're pre-judging again

Not at all. I have not pre-judged at all, let alone 'again'. I am merely re-dressing an imbalance by pointing out that others have contributed to this subject,many eminent scholars included. To suggest that they somehow 'missed' something is insulting to all those people.

You may have noticed that Jason does not claim to have found something everyone else has missed. Nor does he claim to have found a new conclusive piece of evidence ( Dan Howard's remark notwithstanding)

To suggest otherwise is to do Jason and his work a dis-service

I am looking forward to reading Jason's work, which should be a fairly comprehensive study, by what we know of it. D

But to foolishly believe that it is going to be conclusive would be to place unfair expectations on Jason. Only a fool or a child would do that. :lol:

[Tarbicus]

Sorry, Paul, but it's all too preemptive. Even if Jason's research reveals nothing particularly new, you, nor anyone else, can possibly predetermine that unless possessed of psychic abilities.

[Paullus Scipio]

Tarbicus said:-

Sorry, Paul, but it's all too preemptive. Even if Jason's research reveals nothing particularly new, you, nor anyone else, can possibly predetermine that unless possessed of psychic abilities.

...But I didn't !! :? (

[PMBardunias]

The information about white cured leather is interesting. Has anyone ever managed to get the shoulders of a leather tube-and-yoke armour to be springy enough, though? I don't recall ever getting an answer to that question.

I can't answer it either because I have pretty well given you all of my knowledge on the topic of tanning, but I think raw-hide would be stiff enough to cause the springiness seen. I mention rawhide because evidently some types of Alum tawed leather are almost as stiff.

The only examples I can find are from modern parchment and drum-head makers so they are very thin. Aslo the tawed leather can be worked to lose the stiffness which seems common for use in garments like shoes.

I am intreiged by the image of bright white leather that is so stiff that a "tube" would be best formed by 4 stiff panels with worked, supple permanent creases between.

[PMBardunias]

Indulging my Linophile side, can anyone provide better images of a type of Indian cloth armor known as a "Peti". This one is in the Victoria and Albert museum and I think was taken from the Tipoo sultan. It is related to a composite armor called a "coat of a thousand nails". Interestingly these can be found in both cloth and leather. Perhaps we should step back and consider the fact that in other cultures cloth and leather, plain and reinforced with scales or plates are all seen together.

A Thorakes was simply a thorakes since it protected the thorax regardless of how it was made. For example, we know there were tube and yoke armors with scales and without at the minimum. The presence of scales seems to be equally as big a jump as would changing the base material from linen to leather and yet the Greeks seem to make no distinction.

[Paullus Scipio]

Jason wrote:-

All of these frescos show linothoraxes painted for the majority in white and decorated with blues, pinks, reds and other colours. I have not come across a single image painted in antiquity of a linothorax that is brown.

For the record, three points (which have been aired previously - see 'Leather Cuirass 'thread ) :-

1. Neither natural vegetable tanned leather nor natural linen are 'white' - natural tanned leather is a pink/flesh coloured tone, and natural linen is a creamy buff/biscuit colour. Both would have to be dyed/painted to appear 'white'.

2.there are a number of ancient frescos/paintings that show tube-and-yoke corselets in a pink/flesh/natural leather or buff base colour - two which spring readily to mind are the Macedonian Tomb of Lyson and Kallikles, and an Etruscan fresco of Greeks v Amazons which has both Hoplites wearing pink/flesh/natural leather tube-and-yoke corselets.

3. AFIK I can't recall seeing any creamy/biscuit coloured 'natural linen' corselets...........

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, I thought urine/amonia tanning produced white leather,and would that not have come first?

I hate to repeat myself, but this is a question I can't help would be useful to know the answer to? (for me anyway) I have always believed that urine was a bleaching agent since pre-historic times...thinking that artifacts have been analyzed and compounds identified?

Correct me if I am totally off course here?

[PMBardunias]

I hate to repeat myself, but this is a question I can't help would be useful to know the answer to? (for me anyway) I have always believed that urine was a bleaching agent since pre-historic times...thinking that artifacts have been analyzed and compounds identified?

I'm not ignoring you, I simply do not know the answer. I agree it would be good to know. Does urine tan leather or does it simply cure it like lime? I'm not sure myself the difference, but chemically there is a big one.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Laudes Giannis K. Hoplite on yours! Do you have any detailed photos of you making it?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks.I suppose you've read through all these pages so you know some details,like that it is not linen but canvas and such.
Unfortunately,at that time I did not have a digital camera,and though I took 2-3 photos,I now don't have a scaner to show them to you.
However I can show you a drawing I made,that makes pretty clear the basic stages of its construction.

And also some more photos that might show how it was made
http://www.larp.com/hoplite/JKad3.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... and-me.jpg
http://www.larp.com/hoplite/JKad4.jpg
[size=75:3p0arnbd](The shield and helmet are not mine and were put there with photoshop[/size]

I recently shortened the pteryges cutting the just over the black lines.It is now more authentic(not covering the genitals) and more usuable,allowing me for some reason to bend and sit easier.
Khaire
Giannis

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

You’re welcome.

I could see using canvas as a base and then adding layers of linen over it. I really can't see someone running over to you, ripping your armor apart and screaming... "look! the part you can't see, here underneath the linen isn't authentic!"

Back to the Linothorax design/construction … In the photo here: http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... nlinen.jpg the solider appears to be wearing a very tight body garment, long sleeved covering his arms and legs… has anyone tried to replicate this whole look?

BTW: I’m just about done on my Roman subarmails, all felt and linen construction… I tell you though, once you start making something like this, you really have to tip your hat to the ancient seamstress… I’ve been working on mine for over a month!

It’s for my officer’s impression and I’m really trying to stay away from the Hollywood garbage, for example… I’m not putting 3 leather Pteruges on each shoulder because no statue or fresco looks like that. I have 3 layers of 21 Pteruges on each shoulder, alternating colors (like the traces of paint on the statue of Augustus) each Pteruges is felt wrapped in linen with natural pearl cotton fringe (no Hollywood gold). The overall garment is two layers of felt, diamond stitched together, the Tongue Pteruges are cut from one piece of leather wrapped all the way around my waist (not separate individually cut semi circles) with appliqués, and I have 2 layers of 60 long Pteruges going around my waist.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Gioi,I'm sorry,I wish there was a way to take your laudes back.It seems you thought I painted the helmet and shield?I just cut them from other photos and placed them on my photo.Nothing special,though it was time consuming!
The shield is Eduardo's from Spain and the helmet is from Manning Imperial.

Anthony,the hoplite association have re-enacted skythians,the culture that the Greeks borrowed to depict Amazons.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=240
http://www.hoplites.org/HAcolchester06b.htm
http://www.hoplites.org/HAodyssey06.htm
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

I understand that he's catalogued images and poured over the other sources such as they are, but evidence is scarce.

That just pre-judges Jason's research, without waiting for his work to be finished or published. Everyone's being impatient.

Whoah, Tarbicus! I was asking Jason whether he thought he had anything revolutionary on the linen-vs-leather debate (I know he has found some other things that were not known before by his systematic look at ancient art, such as that many or most tube-and-yoke armours were double-breasted). I stand by my statement about what would be needed to resolve this debate one way or another.

Those finds in Macedon sound very interesting, and I hope they are properly published in less than 20 years or so.

Robinson's Oriental Armour has a photo of that peti, I think, along with Sultan Tippoo's 'invulnerable' padded helmet.

[PMBardunias]

Robinson's Oriental Armour has a photo of that peti, I think, along with Sultan Tippoo's 'invulnerable' padded helmet.

Thanks. I don't own the book, but I've read it online and that is where I first learned of this type of armor:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rC5vcg ... #PPA101,M1

You can see it on page 100 (I can't copy the image to post it). The author hypothesizes Greek influence, which if it could be supported should be part of this debate.

For those interested take a look at page 102 and you'll see the an analogy to what I had been describing about possible embedded plates.