roman-auxillia single combat

[garrelt]

The only differance between unrealistic and realistic weapons is the sharpnes of the blades, when using steel weapons.
The grip and scabberd can be like the originals found.
If you don't mind that the armour that you wear is going to be battle scared, use that armour.
The only conssesion you than have to make is a glove on swordhand.
Safety rules are not only there for the fighters themselves but also, and very important, for the public.


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[Maximio]

Those would looh like socketed pila from a distance I imagine!

At Kalkriese a variation of the "collapsing" Pilum was used, essentially the same materials - painted plastic pipe and a light wood (I think it was balsa). The upshot was a javelin which flew reasonably well and didn't cause too much trauma when it hit.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0120.jpg

The Germanic tribes led by the Cheruscii used wooden poles with a leather head for their fighting spears. In the melee that ensued they were probably safer than metal rounded blunts but didn't look as good. (maybe even painting them silver would have helped).
The local tribe did seem a bit intimidated by the appearance of the XIIII but with Marinus leading the charge who wouldn't be. I suspect even a rudii can cause some damage when used "efficiently."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0131.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0123.jpg

We did sustain one casualty

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0132.jpg

Though that is more likely to be Celer just daydreaming on the job :lol:

Coming just a few weeks before the Last Deva show (already mentioned), it certainly gave a new dimension to the displays.

[Marcus Mummius]

At Kalkriese a variation of the "collapsing" Pilum was used, essentially the same materials - painted plastic pipe and a light wood (I think it was balsa). The upshot was a javelin which flew reasonably well and didn't cause too much trauma when it hit.

Don't people loose eyes with these things? They look great but wouldn't it be better if a piece of foam was mounted on the point? Painting the balsa and the wood black would make them even more convincing.

Vale,

[Maximio]

Don't people loose eyes with these things? They look great but wouldn't it be better if a piece of foam was mounted on the point? Painting the balsa and the wood black would make them even more convincing.

I've looked as close as a I can tothe photo's I have of the Pila and from what I can make out the main shaft was made from plastic pipe with a balsa wood core and the "iron shank" was actually thiner balsa dowel. Their does appear to be a small prominent tip which mayhave been foam taped into a pointed shape and then painted silver.

From looking at the various pics of the pila on the ground after being thrown the system was designed so that the "shank" came away from the shaft on impact. Unlike Marcus' retracting design. Certainly one of our guys was issued with one which was seriously camp in its bent angle.

A darker paint job would have made them more menacing i agree, I guess the manufacturing group preferred that beige look.

[Marcus Mummius]

Thanks for the clarification! So the 'iron' shank was taped to the shaft? Did it break on impact or just bend away?

Which group made them?

The volley sure looks great.

[Maximio]

Thanks for the clarification! So the 'iron' shank was taped to the shaft? Did it break on impact or just bend away?

Which group made them?

The volley sure looks great.

They certainly appeared to break away easily, if you have a look at the pic below you can see that one of the boys of the XIIII in blue in the second rank has the rather limp pilum with the "shank" wilting away.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0104.jpg

In this other pic there are a number of broken pila at the legionaries feet showing the break point

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z82/ ... CT0105.jpg

I'm afraid I don't know which group it is in the photo there were so many I lost track. The Auxilia I was with were all German and I'm pretty certain the Legions were too. Does anyone recognise them?

[Marcus Mummius]

Thanks for those pictures.


Am I getting this right about the construction:

---The shaft is made out of plastic tube

---On this tube a foam pyramidal block is installed (glued for example)

---The foam pyramidal head has a hole that runs through it completely and receives the balsa wood 'iron shank', this shank is just shoved into the hole, without any adhesives

---At the end of the balsa shank a piece of foam is installed to avoid doing damage

Vale

[Maximio]

Thanks for those pictures.


Am I getting this right about the construction:

---The shaft is made out of plastic tube

---On this tube a foam pyramidal block is installed (glued for example)

---The foam pyramidal head has a hole that runs through it completely and receives the balsa wood 'iron shank', this shank is just shoved into the hole, without any adhesives

---At the end of the balsa shank a piece of foam is installed to avoid doing damage

Vale

That certainly describes what I can see on the pics and from my memory. Celer, Marinus - you handled the things does that fit in with your recollections?

However given the photos of the wilting and broken Pila I've shown I would suggest that they were too fragile for serious regular use. I would have to say that Mark's retracting Pila sound like a more robust item. I've just had a look in my shed and found I have most of the components to make one so I'll carry out some experimentation over the next few days and see what I can come up with.

Besides, if I do accidentally maim someone it would give me an opportunity to set up that field hospital idea I was discussing elsewhere. :twisted:

[Marcus Mummius]

I'm looking forward to your experiments! Both the pilum experiment and the subsequent ancient surgical experiments !

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

I'm getting urge to take the pila to the next stage, once I get a few ongoing projects cleared anyway.

I did do some experiments with balsa but it is so fragile it means the pila are virtually one use items. . The materials I used are a reasonable compromise, giving enough weight to fly straight yet little or no damage to those being targeted (or not as in the case of Maximio's friendly fire picture).

I originally wanted to make a tanged pila, which would fit in better with our accurate display items, but time constraints pushed me down the socketed avenue.

I also liked the idea of a soft shank but couldn't figure out any way of doing it safely. :?

A very quick upgrade on the current design would be to plug or butt spike the end. This might help the horrible sound they make when they land. Only disguised by lot's of battle noise. :twisted:

On Garelt's original subject, we haven't doen much in the way of auxiliary single combat but we've worked with the open order deployment and it is extremely effective. It is totally reliant on being very disciplined and only fighting in your own area (12 o'clok to 3 o'clock). You also have to rely upon your comrades to cover the other areas.

[Aurelianus]

We have used a lot of pilas at our Kalkriese battle. They have been made with plastic pipes, durofoam and modelling carton/styropor. The had worked very well!

[garrelt]

Good the pila have being trohwn.
Then the gladius is drawn, marching up to the enemy.
Hitting the front ranks, they hold or they break.
Then the actual fighting starts.
How is the gladius than being used.
Stabbing, cutting, hacking or just showing it the enemy, who in fear of the sheiny weapons and armour says no thank you and go home.

[garrelt]

I know that the gladius would have being used to take out the enemy in close combat.
But in what way was the weapon handeld.
Can we rely on the writings concerning weapon handling by gladiators as the same way the roman soldier used their weapon.

[Marcus Mummius]

We all know Vegetius (Re Militare) writings about soldiers. He writes they trained to stab with the gladius and not to slash. They trained at a pole, a training method that is rumored to have been the same as with the gladiators.

Primary targets were probably face and groin. I don't know if it was Vegetius that said this last bit though...

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

In 1st century legionary style, the gladius should only be used for stabbing. Also the theory is that the Scutum is the primary (and possibly only) means of defence. This should always be borne in mind.

However, when we train we do use the gladius to block incoming blows.

Stabbing, even with a blunt gladius, can cause some painful injuries, particularly if your foe is unarmoured. So a few rules must be laid out;

Acceptable strike points/areas other than cntre chest/stomach.

Reduce the punch power in your stabs.

Areas to keep away from face groin etc.

These rules must be consitently demonstarted in practice sessions as even well followed accidents will happen. One piece of protection worth considering is a Box. hock:

Legionaries should remember to keep the scutum close the the body and braced AT ALL times. If you over extend your reach the scutum will become unstable and you will be exposed, or even get a face full of scutum. The legionary should also not over reach with the gladius, this will save arms and hands being hit (either purposely or by accident). Finally avoid raising your elbow above your armpit level, as this exposes an large unarmoured area. I seem to remember reading about a centurion hitting Tiro's under the armpit with his vitus when the did this, but can't recall where :?

Plain stabbing can look a bit dull in battle so you can always use the withdrawing edge of a missed stab to slice under an arm or on a leg. Of course this would not be s cripple and not a kill.