Wearing greaves 75 until 105 AD

[Peroni]

1. Sculptures: Artisitic license!!! I have seen far too many sculptures, paintings, movies, what have you, picked apart by historians as being incorrect.

But the Adamklissi monument (Tropeum Traiani) was sculpted by the soldiers themselves, not, like the later Trajan's Column by artists who had not been in the theatre of the Dacian wars. I would go along with what I see on the metopes. which depicts ocrae, manicae and a well known helmet type - the Gallic I from Aquincum.

[Tarbicus]

1. Sculptures: Artisitic license!!! I have seen far too many sculptures, paintings, movies, what have you, picked apart by historians as being incorrect.

But the Adamklissi monument (Tropeum Traiani) was sculpted by the soldiers themselves, not, like the later Trajan's Column by artists who had not been in the theatre of the Dacian wars.

Or local Dacian sculptors!!

[L. Marius Victor]

But the Adamklissi monument (Tropeum Traiani) was sculpted by the soldiers themselves, not, like the later Trajan's Column by artists who had not been in the theatre of the Dacian wars. I would go along with what I see on the metopes. which depicts ocrae, manicae and a well known helmet type - the Gallic I from Aquincum.

This is exactly my point. Historians and Reenactors make references to Tajan's column all the time. But, having been built in Rome, by an artist (Apollodorus of Damascus) who may have never even seen real combat (let alone the Dacian conflict itself), there is no way of knowing how historically accurate the pictures on the monument are. The whole reason for me to bring this subject up is that my brother and I are trying to start a new group. Weve decided to portray Legio V Alaudae while they are in Germany (prior to the invasion of Britain). So I dont know if I can use the Adamklissi monument as reference, but for me it is evidence that Legionaries wore greaves.

[arklore70]

Some of it is a judgment call based on the information provided. We have some of pieces of a puzzle, but not all the pieces.

I have trouble believing that Roman Legionaries didn't wear greaves during the first century. Why would they go through the trouble of providing torso protection but no leg protection? It doesn't make sense to me, logically.

Two things to keep in mind is cost of equipping thousands upon thousands of men and the threat.

There are lots of discussion on the RAT boards about why armor like the lorica segmentata came into evolution as well as the phasing out of the mail doubler on the lorica hamata; cost comes up as one of the reasons for these changes. It may have just got too expensive, the Romans cut back on what they thought they could to save money. Greaves could have been considered an unnecessary expense.

The threat to the shins may not have been as dangerous also. In hand to hand combat, you would really have to lower and expose yourself to get a good shot in the shins on a Roman, in which case the man to his left or right would see the opening and dispatch you if he was on his game that day.

Could they have been worn all through the First Century-sure. Could they have been discontinued in the First Century and brought back into service for the Dacian campaigns-sure. Lots of broken terrain that might have caused the shin to be more vulnerable and exposed.

At the end of the day, you can argue it both ways just like tunic color and a few other things. I think you can make a case either way on this.

Cheers,
Mike

[Magnus]

Or just equip the first few ranks with greaves, once the falx armed shock troops have lost their strategic value. Who knows.

More questions than answers as usual. :wink:

[L. Marius Victor]

Your enemy would only have to lower "himself" if he was using a short sword, but if he has a spear its just a matter of lowering the spearhead and sliding it past your shield, and of course theres the threat of archers or slingers. They're the same reasons why the Greeks and other peoples of the ancient world wore greaves. And, about cost. In the long run, it would cost more to lose a man to a disabling leg injury (that could easily become gangrenous and fatal) than it would be to purchase a greave or a pair of greaves. Consider the cost of training and equipment that could be lost if the soldier is injured or killed and not recovered. Of course, wether or not cost was even an issue would be purely speculation. Unless the Roman Empire was having some money problems at this time?

[Caballo]

Its not just against falxes, though..

Looking at this picture, where would you aim your spears, arrows, slingshots and other weapons (apart from at the Centurion, of course )?


Shins every time for me......

[Caballo]

And for comparison with Roman armour, here is a riot policeman from Asia



Note- greaves, shoulder doubling, manica (though worn on the outside of the arm interestingly), helmet, circular shield, and even a sort of cingulum to protect vulnerable parts.......

[Tarbicus]

Your enemy would only have to lower "himself" if he was using a short sword,

There is a primary reference to an enemy culture using just such a tactic, going down on their knees to increase pushing power. A possible result of this would be the Roman lower legs being vulnerable, as the enemy could no doubt have comrades directly behind and above them attacking the Roman's upper body at the same time. IIRC, it's a later reference, but perhaps still applicable. It was discussed at some length here.

I'm fairly sure that one of the Adamklissi metopes shows a Roman wearing a single greave on the left leg only, while others or another shows them on both.

Given the geographical distribution of manicae in a 1st-C context outside of Dacia, I wouldn't see any reason for ocreae to follow a different pattern. They're both limb defences, after all.

[Caballo]

The problem I see is that we have good sculptural proof but not archaeological proof (as yet) for the first century. Re-constructing them should therefore use patterns from other later Roman greaves perhaps, keeping to the simpler patterns?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Why not ones that have features of older and later greaves?

[Caballo]

Sure- good point!

[Caballo]

Looking at these excellent Adamklissi pictures http://www.leg8.com/Musees/Adamclisi_04.php if you scroll about 2/3s of the way down, there is a clear picture of a greave of this period.
Looks to my mind similar to this one


The ones that Adrian sells at Armamentaria would do well to represent these, I think? Alternatively, for US Rat people, the Mercenary's Tailor do a good version.

Cheers

Caballo

[Peroni]

That's basically what I did for Nerva (Martin). I took a pair of our steel 'Kunzing' greaves and removed the top and bottom fold-backs.