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Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting
#46
Yeah, and I reckon what we've been discussing is far more likely than the "greek style" hoplon emblems usually assigned to them in the wargames world !
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#47
Since you are talking about a wargaming army then the Celt and Spanish mercenaries are represented with the emblems asociated with their cultures.
Crimson and purple was in the finacial means of Carthage nobility.

The cresent sign is a good shield emblem as the Greeks asociated with "Melena Afrodity" and the Phoinicians with Istar as a war godess
I suggest the Phoinician cresent in a purple or red background unlike the Greek that was in black.

Cretan archers were mentioned in Carthagenian armies so there go you red tunics for archers.

Hope it helps
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#48
Thanks, very helpful. Won't help my losing streak, but at least they'll look pretty. Big Grin
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#49
If you can't win, you can at least look better than your opponent. 8)

Here are some shield emblem ideas I made using a couple of symbols for Tanit and a sketch I made of one possible Horse and Tree emblem:

[Image: carthageshieldemblems.jpg]
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
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#50
Quote:Ooooo! I'll be looking to add that book to my library!

I was looking at pictures of Carthaginian coins in order to get a sense for their "horse and a tree" theme - similar to the "Big Black Horse Under a Cherry Tree" only not nearly so musical - anyway, I discovered this picture that really surprised me - check out the helmet:

That is definitely an Etrusco-Corinthian helm - note the cheek pieces and the chinstrap. Confusedhock:

As I noted on the picture, this coin is dated to 228 to 221 BC and was apparently found in the area of New Carthage.

Images of Athena wearing helmets are NOT valid sources for information on local equipment. Like the Dioskourides and the pilos helmet, the Italo-Corinthian was associated with Athena and so is not indicative of local helmet types.

Quote:BTW, the guy wearing the Etrusco-Corinthian helmet is usually identified as Hannibal, and the coin is a di-shekel (two shekel piece)

Are you sure that's a guy? It looks very feminine to me.

Quote:Cretan archers were mentioned in Carthagenian armies so there go you red tunics for archers.

Why do you associate red tunics with Cretans?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#51
Quote:Images of Athena wearing helmets are NOT valid sources for information on local equipment. Like the Dioskourides and the pilos helmet, the Italo-Corinthian was associated with Athena and so is not indicative of local helmet types.

Quote:Are you sure that's a guy? It looks very feminine to me.

Are you serious, or are you just trying to provoke conversation? You admit that you know very little about the Western Med so I am going to guess it is the latter.

It makes no sense for the Italo-Corinthian helmet to be associated with Athena what with Athena being a Greek goddess and the Italo-Corinthian being not only an Italian helmet, but a helmet considered to be unique to Italy. Pictures of Athena certainly do exist with with her wearing a Corinthian helmet pushed back on her head, but an Italo-Corinthian helmet? You can produce some images of that if you wish - it would be interesting, however, this coin is not Athena. The image has already been identified as that of a man, possibly Hannibal, and the coin has been identified as one that was minted in Spain, in New Carthage, and during Hannibal's lifetime. In fact, the low end dating of 221 BC is when Hannibal became general and if a man with a helmet was going to be portrayed on a coin at that time, there is a good chance it would be Hannibal. If it isn't Hannibal then I imagine it might be either his uncle or his father.

Regardless of who the man is, that the Carthaginians would choose to portray him as wearing an Italo-Corinthian helmet - it is most definitely not a Corinthian as you can clearly see the cheek piece and the helmet strap under the man's chin - is interesting. As I said the helmet is classified as uniquely Italian, but if it was then why would a man important to Carthage be shown wearing one? We know the Carthaginians looked like Romans at Cannae, but it is an assumption that they did not look anything like Romans, or other Italians, prior to that. Since Hannibal planned on recruiting local Italians to his cause for both manpower and supplies I would even be willing to theorize that his army was already equipped a more Italian manner.

Since the Romans were so very thorough at wiping Carthage off the face of the Earth, any pre-Cannae portrayal will be theoretical and will have to be based on what little information we do have. What we do have are two Carthaginian coins each showing a different helmet. From this we can say for certain that the Carthaginians knew what those helmets looked like. Can we say with equal confidence that, having seen these helmets, the Carthaginians also wore them? Of course not - since the Carthaginians had contact with just about everyone in the Mediterranean through their merchant fleet, it is at least theoretically possible.
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
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#52
Quote:Are you serious, or are you just trying to provoke conversation? You admit that you know very little about the Western Med so I am going to guess it is the latter. It makes no sense for the Italo-Corinthian helmet to be associated with Athena what with Athena being a Greek goddess and the Italo-Corinthian being not only an Italian helmet, but a helmet considered to be unique to Italy.

My mistake, it is a man (albeit an androgynous one), but Athena does wear the Italo-Corinthian or Pseudo-Corinthian helmet on other, non-Italian coins. Italo-Corinthian is only a name, and it was by no means exclusively Italian.

Quote:Pictures of Athena certainly do exist with with her wearing a Corinthian helmet pushed back on her head, but an Italo-Corinthian helmet? You can produce some images of that if you wish - it would be interesting,

From Abydus on the Hellespont:
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/nac ... 027q00.jpg

From Pamphylia:
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/kun ... 033p00.jpg

From Syracuse:
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/gor ... b00043.jpg

From Cilicia:
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng ... 000378.jpg

Quote:however, this coin is not Athena. The image has already been identified as that of a man, possibly Hannibal, and the coin has been identified as one that was minted in Spain, in New Carthage, and during Hannibal's lifetime. In fact, the low end dating of 221 BC is when Hannibal became general and if a man with a helmet was going to be portrayed on a coin at that time, there is a good chance it would be Hannibal. If it isn't Hannibal then I imagine it might be either his uncle or his father.

Regardless of who the man is, that the Carthaginians would choose to portray him as wearing an Italo-Corinthian helmet - it is most definitely not a Corinthian as you can clearly see the cheek piece and the helmet strap under the man's chin - is interesting.

What? I don't see a cheek piece or a helmet strap. Take a look at this clearer example:

[Image: 650005.jpg]

I think you are mistaking the curve of his cheek and chin as a cheek piece.

Quote:As I said the helmet is classified as uniquely Italian, but if it was then why would a man important to Carthage be shown wearing one? We know the Carthaginians looked like Romans at Cannae, but it is an assumption that they did not look anything like Romans, or other Italians, prior to that. Since Hannibal planned on recruiting local Italians to his cause for both manpower and supplies I would even be willing to theorize that his army was already equipped a more Italian manner.

As I said, the Pseudo-Corinthian (I'm going to use this term to avoid the clear geographical bias of the other term) was by no means exclusively Italian, though it was most popular there.

Quote:Since the Romans were so very thorough at wiping Carthage off the face of the Earth, any pre-Cannae portrayal will be theoretical and will have to be based on what little information we do have. What we do have are two Carthaginian coins each showing a different helmet. From this we can say for certain that the Carthaginians knew what those helmets looked like. Can we say with equal confidence that, having seen these helmets, the Carthaginians also wore them? Of course not - since the Carthaginians had contact with just about everyone in the Mediterranean through their merchant fleet, it is at least theoretically possible.

While we're on the issue of coins from Carthago Nova, showing helmets, this one (c. 220-210 BC) is a good source, and thoroughly Hellenistic:

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/peu ... 804p00.jpg
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/mun ... 126q00.jpg
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#53
Hi, Ruben - the two coins with helmet on the reverse are interesting, in that the the 'offset' dies show they were not minted in Carthage, but most likely in Spain, or even South Italy. There are better/crisper versions of this coin, and it is this helmet I was referring to as 'Thracian/Thraco-Attic' .
( As an aside, I dislike helmet typologies, since even Imperial Roman helmets differ markedly from one another - they were all too obviously not factory made - unless maybe the late roman types e.g. 'Intercisa' were made in 'Fabrica.)
Likewise, I am with you on the 'de-based corinthian' helmets (also called "Etrusco-Corinthian" because of their popularity there).
The latter makes the point that a popular etruscan helmet would certainly be in use in Carthage, given their strong trade/alliance ties.
All this means that it is likely that Carthaginian troops, whether mercenary or Liby-phoenecian, are likely to have closely resembled Hellenistic mercenaries, such as those on the Sidon tomb paintings - incidently Sidon, along with Tyre were the two major Phoenician cities., though one suspects that whilst the professional mercenary might afford a Hellenistic helmet, a Liby-Phoenician levy/conscript might have had to make do with a simpler mass-produced 'pot'.
The Athena portraits almost all seem to me to depict the traditional 'corinthian', tilted back, rather than 'de-based' types (look at the skulls and notice also that they are all missing the brow band on the carthaginian, thus looking distinctly 'classical corinthian') - but admittedly very difficult to be certain on this scale and within the limitations of the coin medium.The source for the type on which the Carthaginian is based is clear, however. The carthaginian one seems to show side-whiskers down the cheek (?) - perhaps to emphasise male, and avoid being mistaken for its female prototype?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#54
Interesting - thanks! It is also interesting that the coin you have in your post is different coin than the one in my post and the wear patterns are different. See?

[Image: CarthageCoin.jpg]
[Image: 650005.jpg]

On the top one the areas that I think look like cheek pieces (not sure about the bit by the chin, heck now that I've seen a second coin I could go either way on the whole thing) are here:

[Image: carthagecoinhighlight.jpg]
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
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#55
Sorry, Dan but I don't think the cheek pieces are plausible....although, IIRC, there are a few 'debased corinthian' types depicted with cheek pieces, most did not have them.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#56
No need to appologize - I have no emotional attachment to anything I post here; just sort if running ideas up the flagpole and seeing who, if anyone, salutes. With that picture I mainly I just wanted to show where I got the idea. I am going to say the cheekpiece idea falls into the "no one salutes" category and run it down off the flagpole.

Next up the flagpole: what "off the shelf" helmets might the aspiring Carthaginian reenactor make use of and not cause other reenactors to snicker quietly off to the side?

As far as Hellenistic era helmets go Deepeeka, for example, offers an Attic helmet, a Montefortino, one they call an "Alexander the Great" helmet, an "Athenian Hoplite" helmet (which has the peak riveted to the top of the helmet - not sure about that detail, and the cheekpieces might need to be modified somewhat), and I suppose it might even be possible to get a Corinthian helmet and modify it to be a "debased Corinthian".
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
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#57
Quote:Hi, Ruben - the two coins with helmet on the reverse are interesting, in that the the 'offset' dies show they were not minted in Carthage, but most likely in Spain, or even South Italy. There are better/crisper versions of this coin, and it is this helmet I was referring to as 'Thracian/Thraco-Attic' .

I am no numismatist, so I don't know about things like this. Good to know!

Quote:( As an aside, I dislike helmet typologies, since even Imperial Roman helmets differ markedly from one another - they were all too obviously not factory made - unless maybe the late roman types e.g. 'Intercisa' were made in 'Fabrica.)
Likewise, I am with you on the 'de-based corinthian' helmets (also called "Etrusco-Corinthian" because of their popularity there).

I agree, especially when you have deliberate hybrid helmets, but it's better than "helmet with front visor and small brim and short metallic crest and small neckguard" Smile .

Quote:The latter makes the point that a popular etruscan helmet would certainly be in use in Carthage, given their strong trade/alliance ties.
All this means that it is likely that Carthaginian troops, whether mercenary or Liby-phoenecian, are likely to have closely resembled Hellenistic mercenaries, such as those on the Sidon tomb paintings - incidently Sidon, along with Tyre were the two major Phoenician cities., though one suspects that whilst the professional mercenary might afford a Hellenistic helmet, a Liby-Phoenician levy/conscript might have had to make do with a simpler mass-produced 'pot'.

You have to remember that the equipment of the Sidon mercenaries isn't really indicative of anything Phoenician because the mercenaries weren't Phoenician- they were almost entirely Anatolian (mostly Pisidian and Carian). Unless you suppose that their equipment was provided by the state, in which case you would have to go about proving that, and I know from experience that there's almost no evidence one way or the other!

Quote:The Athena portraits almost all seem to me to depict the traditional 'corinthian', tilted back, rather than 'de-based' types (look at the skulls and notice also that they are all missing the brow band on the carthaginian, thus looking distinctly 'classical corinthian') - but admittedly very difficult to be certain on this scale and within the limitations of the coin medium.

I disagree. Look at the neckguards- they are all clearly set farther back than the neckguards of ordinary Corinthian helmets, and would awkwardly flare out if worn as the Corinthians normally were. Pseudo-Corinthians weren't always without a brow band as there seem to have been various types of helmets ranging from wholly Corinthian all the way to wholly Pseudo-Corinthian, with different variations in between. Some had the brow band, others didn't; some had the large face just as it was on the Corinthian only on the raised visor, others had only a small, vestigial face, and others had no face at all.

Quote:Interesting - thanks! It is also interesting that the coin you have in your post is different coin than the one in my post and the wear patterns are different. See?

On the top one the areas that I think look like cheek pieces (not sure about the bit by the chin, heck now that I've seen a second coin I could go either way on the whole thing) are here:

Yes, but they are from the same mint. And what you identify as a cheek piece on the original one posted in this thread is just wear on his cheeks and chin, and comparison with the example I posted shows this. How could you explain there being hair on the outside of the cheek piece?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Reply
#58
Dan,

What about a pilos? Already established as accurate. Available from that purveyor of all things good and just Manning Imperial for a reasonable price.

By the by, did these three pages of discourse ever decide on what armor, if any would be appropriate?

Cordially,

MJB
Mediocris Ventvs Qvod Seqvax Maris

Michael
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#59
"You have to remember that the equipment of the Sidon mercenaries isn't really indicative of anything Phoenician because the mercenaries weren't Phoenician- they were almost entirely Anatolian (mostly Pisidian and Carian). Unless you suppose that their equipment was provided by the state, in which case you would have to go about proving that, and I know from experience that there's almost no evidence one way or the other!"

I think you may have misunderstood my point here !The Sidon tombstones, and Alexandrian ones too depict a troop type called thureophoroi or mercenary ( the type is usually synonymous).They come from a variety of places - Anatolia (Bithinyans,Lycians,Pisidians) Greece (Aechea,Crete - this is the source for cretan red tunics, by the way) etc. The point is, wherever they come from in the Hellenistic world, and regardless of whether state or privately supplied, or whether they are Macedonian, Seleucid or Ptolemaic, they are all alike in appearance -namely, thureos (usually plain white), bronze hellenistic helmet (often peaked thraco-Attic types-as seen on coin), tunic (usually red), booted and armed with spear or longche, sword and (probably) javelins. We know that Carthage traded with the "mother country" on a big scale, so no surprise that Carthaginian troops should be similarly equipped, and possibly even some of them recruited there.
( as an aside, we also hear - Polybius - of a troop type called Thorakitai or 'breastplate wearers' in the Achean and Seleucid armies,who are sometimes described as "armed in the Roman fashion". These too appear on tomb paintings as thureophroi with the addition of mail body armour. We may surmise that Carthage did not have these, since otherwise it would have been pointless to adopt "the choicest Roman arms" after Trebia/Trasimene).
I see your point about the "Athena" coins, but am still inclined to think that they are meant to be 'classical corinthian'. As I said earlier, given the limitations of the medium, you may well be right, but in any event the carthaginian coin clearly depicts a 'debased corinthian' in use by a Carthaginian officer, probably Hannibal. Again, as said before a helmet sourced from one of Carthage's main trade routes/allies.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#60
Hi zugislander !
I have been trying to put forward the view that Carthaginian mercenaries ( as opposed to ethnic types such as Spaniards or Gauls ) and African/Liby-phoenician levies were armed as thureophroi/mercenaries ( see above) and hence did not have body armour - at least until after Trebia.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply


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