Did Romulus and Remus exist?

[stevesarak]

Hi,

Did Romulus and Remus exist? Livy talks about their history, and that the common believe at the time was that the farmer who found them, brought them home to his wife who raised them, she was called a “she-wolfâ€

[Jona Lendering]

Livy writes that these story are conspicuous for their antiquity, not for their reliability. In other words, he writes down something that he does not believe, but thinks can be inspiring. Modern scholars tend to discard the stories as myths, except for some Italian archaeologists (e.g., Carandini) who claim that recent discoveries prove that in the mid-eighth century, there were some serious building projects in Rome.

As far as I know, that only proves that -ahem- there were some serious buildings projects in Rome; it does not prove that the builders were called Romulus and Remus, that Romulus raped the Sabine women, etc. Similar discoveries (e.g., the identification of the royal palace on the Velia) have been discarded by non-Italian archaeologists (e.g., Moormann).

In my opinion, there is no need to prove a story that even Livy did not believe. We're not looking for traces of Theseus and Heracles either, do we?

[M. Demetrius]

>>>We're not looking for traces of Theseus and Heracles either, do we?<<<

We're NOT?? Well, ok, then, I'll fill in all the holes in my back yard. Dang. I was sure they'd both built a shelter in Texas. Oh, well. Getting hot out there anyhow.

[Tarbicus]

I posted a link to a 24 page PDF yesterday, about Romulus and Remus. Where did it go?

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Do scholars as a whole believe them to be a myth or real or are they torn between the two.

Scholars don't know enough to affirm anything about it, but it's the same for a lot of other stories :wink: . So you can consider Romulus in the Myth for now, also as one of the aspects of Mars. That's absolutely not a decrease of his importance.

Vale,

[stevesarak]

Thanks to all.

Tarbicus, I'd like to see that link, maybe you could post it again.

[Jona Lendering]

I posted a link to a 24 page PDF yesterday, about Romulus and Remus. Where did it go?

That has happened several times to me as well.

[Matthew Amt]

Livy writes that these story are conspicuous for their antiquity, not for their reliability. In other words, he writes down something that he does not believe, but thinks can be inspiring. Modern scholars tend to discard the stories as myths, except for some Italian archaeologists (e.g., Carandini) who claim that recent discoveries prove that in the mid-eighth century, there were some serious building projects in Rome.

As far as I know, that only proves that -ahem- there were some serious buildings projects in Rome; it does not prove that the builders were called Romulus and Remus, that Romulus raped the Sabine women, etc.

Exactly. There's no way to prove (or disprove!!) all the neat stories, nor even the existence of the people themselves. It's only scientific to understand that it's a great story with a lot of bits we can't be sure of. But it is interesting that everything found pretty much goes along with the stories, so far!

I do find it odd that scholars often start to study some fascinating era by throwing out the literary evidence! Hey, it may be a "legend", but why do they put so much enthusiasm into poo-pooing it? And of course the more that is dug up that lines up with the legend, the hotter they get about it all being a myth. Poor things. I find it much easier to think that Romulus and Remus did actually exist, even if much of what we "know" about them isn't accurate. Might as well go with the evidence we have, eh?

I'm hoping to do a Romulus impression after I get a few Mycenaean bits nailed down. Some day! There's some fascinating toys from the Villanovan culture.

Valete,

Matthew

[Goffredo]

Rome wasn't founded by Romulus but by a guy with the same name! hock:

[Tarbicus]

Thanks to all.

Tarbicus, I'd like to see that link, maybe you could post it again.

Found it again.

http://theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/root ... omulus.pdf

I also believe the cave of Lupercale has been found in Rome, on the Palatine?

[Matthew]

Any idea on the provenance of that article, Tarbicus? Looks like 1987 to judge by the Url.

Matthew James Stanham

[Jona Lendering]

I also believe the cave of Lupercale has been found in Rome, on the Palatine?

[url:2mc621bu]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070126-rome-palatine.html[/url]

[D B Campbell]

Did Romulus and Remus exist?

Herald Tribune had this last week.

[Roy]

I remember reading that when Cornelius Cossus and Marcellus donated their spolia opima to Jupiter Feretrius, and when Augustus entered the temple to examine the cuiras taken from Tolumnius by Cossus, they saw Romulus' spolia opima in the temple.

I don't think they'd just make that up, so Romulus probably existed.


I think I read about Marcellus' spolia opima in Plutarch's Life of Marcellus, but I might be wrong.
Don't remember where I read about Cossus' and Augustus, I'll look it up sometime.

[Jona Lendering]

I remember reading that when Cornelius Cossus and Marcellus donated their spolia opima to Jupiter Feretrius, and when Augustus entered the temple to examine the cuiras taken from Tolumnius by Cossus, they saw Romulus' spolia opima in the temple.

I don't think they'd just make that up, so Romulus probably existed.

It's Livy 4.20, who does not mention Romulus. Plutarch, Marcellus 8, says that the first spolia opima were Romulus's, but does not mention that the arms of the man he had killed were in the temple of Jupiter Feretrius. And even if there was an ancient coat of arms in the temple, which was called "Romulus' spolia opima", it does not mean that it was authentic. In the age of Alexander, the Trojans showed the weapons of the heroes of the great war; but no one will argue that they really owned Mycenaean arms and armor. Compare the relics of the saints in medieval churches; when checked by scientists, they are often too young.