Decanus

[Pertinax]

Am correct in thinking they wore the two feathers either side. Is there any evidence of any other way they were worn at all or just that way????

[Peroni]

There is no evidence at all that says that decanus, optio or any similar rank wore feathers or side plumes.

The rank of decanus or decurion is generally ascribed to the auxiliary cavalry AFAIK.

The only evidence for wearing of crests particular to rank is that of the transverse crest of the centurion seen on tombstones.

Many helmets of varying types i.e. Coolus types, gallic types feature feather tubes, but theres nothing to say that they all belonged to these ranks.

[Marcus Mummius]

I think it's more or less agreed upon that regular soldiers wore crests (and side plumes if they had the holders) when they had to look their best. For example at parades.

[Tarbicus]

when they had to look their best. For example at parades.

Thinking particularly of Caesar's commentaries, they wore their crests and feathers in battle IMHO.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Concur with all...to include Tarbicus' comment on wear in battle.

I can't think of a better time to look your best than perhaps your LAST time.

In addition, the psychological effect of increasing the apparent height of Soldiers in battle should not be discounted either, to my mind.

Certainly in Caesar's time they were worn, as Tarbicus attests.

Just my two cents/pfennings/pence worth! :wink:

Edge

[Et tu brute]

What do people think about recovering crests etc. after battle? How much would they have been worth? It seems like it would have been a waste if the fallens plumes were left, but then again i'd think that such a flimsy thing as a crest wouldn't hold up very well in battle conditions.

[Marcus Mummius]

when they had to look their best. For example at parades.

Thinking particularly of Caesar's commentaries, they wore their crests and feathers in battle IMHO.

Indeed, I'd include that occasion in the category of 'when the soldiers had to look their best'.

Battles were pretty rare though most of the time and I think the soldiers wouldn't have worn the crests when doing their daily drilling, watch duty etc.

I wonder how you'd see the centurio in battle when everybody is wearing crests. But then again, do you really need to see the centurio? You have to hear him, and see the signum but I don't think it's important to see the centurio...

I find it very annoying to do a testudo while wearing a crest though...

[Gaius_Calvus]

Jef,

Ah -- good question:

I wonder how you'd see the centurio in battle when everybody is wearing crests. But then again, do you really need to see the centurio? You have to hear him, and see the signum but I don't think it's important to see the centurio...

The answer is YES -- you need to see the centurio, especially a superior who might have to send him a message...this is the purpose of the transverse crest.

Regards,

Edge

[Marcus Mummius]

Jef,

Ah -- good question:

I wonder how you'd see the centurio in battle when everybody is wearing crests. But then again, do you really need to see the centurio? You have to hear him, and see the signum but I don't think it's important to see the centurio...

The answer is YES -- you need to see the centurio, especially a superior who might have to send him a message...this is the purpose of the transverse crest.

Regards,

Edge

Indeed, there's a different between the crests but I don't know if it'd be very easy to see this when the unit is in combat.

Also I was under the impression that most of the time superiors would have relayed orders by sound to the signifer and cornicen while the centurio was busy 'encouraging' the soldiers that in the front lines.

Vale,

[Gaius_Calvus]

Jef,

I disagree -- simply because if it did not work, then I doubt that the transverse crest would have survived as long as it did. Military organizations tend to discard conventions that don't work in light of experience.

WRT the relaying of messages, you presume that the centurio was always (or most of the time) otherwise engaged. Yes, signals were used, but centurions were required to be literate in order to allow them to receive written instructions. While he certainly fought in the front ranks -- actual fighting was not a constant affair -- pulses of combat separated by pauses (as in a boxing match) were the norm in my opinion.

Edge

[Marcus Mummius]

Jef,

I disagree -- simply because if it did not work, then I doubt that the transverse crest would have survived as long as it did. Military organizations tend to discard conventions that don't work in light of experience.

Edge

Very interesting discussion :-) ) .

I once read something here on RAT about centuriones sporting silvered helmets to be recognised. I don't remember were I read it, nor the source, if any, the poster based himself on.

Very problematic is also that certain crest colours could have designated certain ranks. For which we have absolutely no evidence I think.

I just think that I wouldn't be able to single out over a distance a transverse crest that is moving around as the wearer turns his head if the crest had the same colour as the dozens of other crests that were waving around him... But perhaps with some training :-) )

[Gaius_Calvus]

You make some very good points, as usual, Jef.

I freely admit I don't know the correct answer, but maybe it's the training and what you train yourself to "see."

I know that when I wear my uniform, my rank is on a small square in the center of my chest, and so when I see another US Army Soldier it is the first place I look. When a civilian sees me they don't usually "see" my rank, etc.

Maybe the Romans "saw" them more clearly because they were used to "seeing" it, if you take my meaning.

Or, maybe it was just confusing as all hades and we'll never know the answer! :lol:

I enjoy thinking and talking about it, though, with you guys.

Regards,

Edge

[Pertinax]

So, generally its feathers either side judging by some of the sites I have had a look at. Hmm, but then is it??????

[Marcus Mummius]

So, generally its feathers either side judging by some of the sites I have had a look at. Hmm, but then is it??????

Every rank could have worn feathers in side plume holders on either side of their helmets. As far as I know there were always two holders that were positioned more or less symetrical to each other at the sides of the helmet.

Using a helmet with side plume holders to designate someone with the rank of Decanus or Optio is purely a reenactor thing. There is no evidence the Romans did this! There is a tombstone of an optio who's wearing side plumes on his helmet but also other ranks are depicted with this feature. So it isn't a rank specific thing.

There are depictions of soldiers on tombstones that have side plumes on their helmet but are neither optio nor decanus...

I just found out were I read that part on silvering

It's the last post of this thread: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... red+helmet

Apparently Vegetius wrote that the transverse crests were part silvered. This might help to set apart the Centurio's crest from the one of the common rankers...

[Pertinax]

Good stuff. Thanks Marcus