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[split] Distances between files and ranks
#76
(09-07-2018, 04:56 PM)Bryan Wrote: The ridge at Ilerda is identified today (at least it was some years ago). Dodge mentions that the historian Rüstow measured that ridge, finding it equivalent to 360 feet in width at the point that Caesar had three cohorts attacking up it (Caes DBC 1.45-46).

Play with the variables of the size of Caesar's cohorts, and do the math. It will describe the possibilities, depending on the size of the cohorts, of the width and depth of each cohort, at least in Caesar's time.

Well, you can google map the ridge (more of a draw, actually); it in fact is a maximum of 150-180 meters, narrowing substantially as one moves up the hill. We have no great sense of where the fighting took place.

One other problem to consider: Caesar's cohorts were severely understrength; at Pharsalus they would be an average of 275 strong, and were probably not much more than this at Illerda (say 300).

I am willing to posit that Caesar's cohorts at Illerda, fighting in a tight spot, occupied c. 50 meters each, while a full strength Imperial cohort (480 men), might perhaps occupy 80-100 meters. This would give a 4/3/3 legion a frontage of 400-500 meters, accounting for gaps between the cohorts. And of course the whole point of having a modular tactical system was to adjust the frontage and depth of the formation to meet the tactical exigency.
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#77
Michael Taylor wrote:

One other problem to consider: Caesar's cohorts were severely understrength; at Pharsalus they would be an average of 275 strong, and were probably not much more than this at Illerda (say 300).
 
Caesar states he had 22,000 men. He does not identify them as infantry or cavalry. Appian gives Caesar 22,000 men of which 1,000 were cavalry. That makes 21,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry. 21,000 infantry divided by 80 cohorts = 262 point 25.
 
My numbers for Caesar’s infantry after the removal of the fourth line, the antesignani, and the camp guards works out to be 21,000 infantry. Most mathematicians would say I tick the box.
 
Michael Taylor
This would give a 4/3/3 legion a frontage of 400-500 meters, accounting for gaps between the cohorts.
 
I have each legion with a frontage of 450 feet. This is based on the legion arrayed in its ordo organisation, which is the primi ordinum, superior ordines, inferiores ordines and infimi ordines, as stated by Caesar. It does produce a 4/3/3 type cohort formation, but the cohort has a different arrangement than the standard cohort. It’s a pity Caesar described the organisation in relation to the cohort rather than the ordo.
 
Both forces had five legions at Illerda, so following Caesar the Pompeian array each legion in the 5/2 cohort formation. Caesar could do the same, but then he would have no one to face the auxiliary line behind the Pompeian cohorts, and that is what he was worried about.
 
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#78
Michael wrote:

Can you enlighten me on that then, please?
 
Sorry, I missed this post. The reference to the six military tribunes is Polybius. Other than that, I am not sure what you are asking.
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#79
(09-13-2018, 08:10 AM)Steven James Wrote: Michael wrote:

Can you enlighten me on that then, please?
 
Sorry, I missed this post. The reference to the six military tribunes is Polybius. Other than that, I am not sure what you are asking.

I knew about Polybius but thought that you were referring to a much later period. What I am asking is:

(a) What is a tribune cohort?
(b) To what period did it relate?
(c ) What is the evidence for it?
(d) It is a term I am unfamiliar with. Is it an inference on your part and, if so, how did you reach that conclusion?

You have also said that a legion could be organised into six tribune cohorts of 800 men each and ten cohorts of 480 men each. Are you suggesting that there were two different types of cohort and, if so, did they co-exist and, if they did not, when were they each in existence?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#80
Michael wrote:
 
(a) What is a tribune cohort?
(b) To what period did it relate?
(c ) What is the evidence for it?
(d) It is a term I am unfamiliar with. Is it an inference on your part and, if so, how did you reach that conclusion?

You have also said that a legion could be organised into six tribune cohorts of 800 men each and ten cohorts of 480 men each. Are you suggesting that there were two different types of cohort and, if so, did they co-exist and, if they did not, when were they each in existence?

 
 
The answers are in the first section of the book (Rome’s Infancy) I sent you some time back.
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#81
(09-14-2018, 04:14 AM)Steven James Wrote: Michael wrote:
 
(a) What is a tribune cohort?
(b) To what period did it relate?
(c ) What is the evidence for it?
(d) It is a term I am unfamiliar with. Is it an inference on your part and, if so, how did you reach that conclusion?

You have also said that a legion could be organised into six tribune cohorts of 800 men each and ten cohorts of 480 men each. Are you suggesting that there were two different types of cohort and, if so, did they co-exist and, if they did not, when were they each in existence?

 
 
The answers are in the first section of the book (Rome’s Infancy) I sent you some time back.

I seem to have two versions of that, one of 120 pages and the other of 123. I take it that the latter is the definitive version. It is a long time since I read it. Can you direct me to a particular page or section, to save me either reading through the whole or skipping through it and perhaps missing something?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#82
Michael wrote:

I seem to have two versions of that, one of 120 pages and the other of 123. I take it that the latter is the definitive version. It is a long time since I read it. Can you direct me to a particular page or section, to save me either reading through the whole or skipping through it and perhaps missing something?
 
My version is now 188 pages. It is simple to find, type in Tribune Cohort. It has its own heading, and comes after an explanation of “the Century, followed by the Maniple, then The Cohort, followed by the Tribune Cohort.
 
Because it is commanded by a military tribune I called it a tribune cohort in order to avoid confusion with the 10 cohort system. If anyone has a better name I would be interested. Primary sources refer to it as a cohort. And technically they are right in doing so as Varro does state a cohort was a gathering of several maniples. The early vexillation organisation was also called a cohort. And this is why there are accounts saying four cohorts each of 600 men, a cohort of 800 men, and two cohorts did not exceed 1,000 men. I am not ashamed to omit that I have undertaken the most comprehensive study of the early legion of the republic from 509 BC to 406 BC. And without understanding the foundations of the Roman legion, makes it very difficult to understand the organisation of the legions that followed.
 
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#83
(09-14-2018, 02:11 PM)Steven James Wrote: Michael wrote:

I seem to have two versions of that, one of 120 pages and the other of 123. I take it that the latter is the definitive version. It is a long time since I read it. Can you direct me to a particular page or section, to save me either reading through the whole or skipping through it and perhaps missing something?
 
My version is now 188 pages. It is simple to find, type in Tribune Cohort. It has its own heading, and comes after an explanation of “the Century, followed by the Maniple, then The Cohort, followed by the Tribune Cohort.
 

I have found it on pp. 69-72 in my copy. It is preceded by sections on the century and the maniple but there is no section on the 'simple' cohort. Should I have this to understand your argument?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#84
Michael wrote:

I have found it on pp. 69-72 in my copy. It is preceded by sections on the century and the maniple but there is no section on the 'simple' cohort. Should I have this to understand your argument?
 
Well that is strange. I can send you an attachment if you want.
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#85
(09-15-2018, 06:59 AM)Steven James Wrote: Michael wrote:

I have found it on pp. 69-72 in my copy. It is preceded by sections on the century and the maniple but there is no section on the 'simple' cohort. Should I have this to understand your argument?
 
Well that is strange. I can send you an attachment if you want.

If you don't mind. I wouldn't want to go off at half-cock for not having read some essential detail.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#86
Michael wrote:

If you don't mind. I wouldn't want to go off at half-cock for not having read some essential detail
 
Attachment sent. Your use of the term “go off: implies you have predetermined I am wrong.
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#87
(09-15-2018, 10:51 AM)Steven James Wrote: Michael wrote:

If you don't mind. I wouldn't want to go off at half-cock for not having read some essential detail
 
Attachment sent. Your use of the term “go off: implies you have predetermined I am wrong.

No it doesn't. I implies that I do not want to comment, favourably or unfavourably, without full information.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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