New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy

New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Printable Version

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Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - drsrob - 09-23-2005

Quote:I would agree with Aitor tht this is clearly a smooth muscle cuirass, but this should come to no surprise. There are many honest depictions of Roman soldiers below the rank of centurion throughout the Imperial Roman era, including provincial contexts, of aparently common soldiers wearing muscle cuirasses. From the evidence, it is likely that if any soldier wanted to buy a muscle cuirass as his preferred armor he could do so. It is erroneous to assume this was an inferior armor as well. In fact, when armor making was at its apex in the 16th century, the one piece metal breast and back plate was "standard equipment" in the finest armors.

...and General's were still portrayed in full armour up to the mid-eighteenth century, while they had ceased using anything more than a breast-plate from the 30-year's war onwards. :wink:

I clearly see scales below the waist and on the shoulder, so I rather think that he is wearing a scale-armour. All in all the armour reminds me very much of that of the centurion Sertorius Festus of the legio XI Claudia

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Daniel S Peterson - 09-24-2005

Uwe,
Thanks for the link. I was able to see most of the armors in his study firsthand during my European travels, and nice to see them again. I agree with most of his observations, though I am a bit disappointed that the study was directed almost exclusively to the armor of high ranking officers. I wonder if the writer is even aware of all the evidence which indicates that "common" soldiers also wore the muscle cuirass in the imperial period. Clear depictions like the archaeologically correct soldiers in muscle cuirases in battle against Germans on the Intercissa relief cannot be denied.

Ebusianus,
I disagree with the notion of laminated cuirasses being made of leather. The lames of metal actually enhance the protective quality of the armor by its ability to absorb blows and spring back. To cut leather into lames does exactly the opposite, it reduces the tensile strength of the armor. Consider how much work would be involved in making such a curaiss, when one molded from a single piece would be stronger and much quicker to make. I observed deepeeka making these in India by pressing a wet piece of thck cowhide between to metal cuirass plates. When the leather dried, the cuirass was removed, and quite serviceable. If it had been rawhide instead it would have been virtually as strong as bronze, but lighter, cheaper and quicker to make.

DSRob,
I too clearly see scales at the shoulder, but this is no reason to assume the very smooth cuirass was scale covered as well. We now know there were scale gorgets worn over laminated lower thorax defenses, so we must not let our modern sense of good taste influence our interpetations of the evidence.. If this was a scale cuirass, surely the less worn areas on the body's side would certainly still show the scales. They don't, yet the area most prone to erode, like the shoulders, do show the scales. There seems to be a scupted navel as well, another clue that it must be a muscle cuirass.

Dan

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Caballo - 09-24-2005

A couple of thoughts:-
- The paludamentum (clearly seen on left shoulder, and possibly behind left arm and between legs); my understanding what that this was usually worn by senior officers only. Or is there some other symbolism (eg - and entirely conjecturally- he was on track for promotion, but died before receivng it)?
-Gladius worn on left side, with hand holding the pommel. Options- a usual sign of the centurion but also worn in a large number of auxillary scupltures. Were marines classed as auxillaries?
-Possibly leather lorica musculata: as regards wearing this on board ship, it has the undoubted advantage of being light (so less chance of drowning if you fall in), but also the disadvantage (as I believe) of losing its protective qualities when wet (ie after rain). Has anyone done any tests on cuir boilli with water to verify this?

Cheers

Britannicus

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Praefectusclassis - 09-24-2005

Quote:entirely conjecturally- he was on track for promotion, but died before receivng it

This was what later was called an 'optio spes', litt. optio with hope (of becoming centurio). IIRC, there are no naval inscriptions with this rank.

Quote:Were marines classed as auxillaries

Naval troops (marines & sailors) served for 26 instead of 25 years according to the extant diplomas, so they were classed on almost, but possibly slightly lower level as the auxiliaries.

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Tarbicus - 09-24-2005

I'm not convinced about the whole cuirass thing; the bottom edge is flat unlike all the cuirasses I've seen except bell cuirasses. Also, are there any other examples of a cingulum being worn over a cuirass? It could have been a painted hamata (the sculptor may have not been up to the job of chiselling all those rings, or not paid enough) and the paint has simply worn away. The squamata shoulder and bottom edging could just be fancy pteruges protruding from underneath the open edges of the hamata hidden by beltwork - let's face it, he being nautical, fishscale shapes would be appropriate, copied from the fancier cuirasses seen. Also, the naval navel could just be weathering.

I'm also not 100% sure about that being a pilum at all (already thrown by the looks of it). The 'tip' could be part of the surround, which would mean the rest up to the spheres is simply an optio's staff. There is no pointed base to it either, but that could just be because of the artist. I'm sure it's definitely a gladius in a horizontal position attached to the baldric, whose wideness may be explained by a thinner baldric being more susceptible to rot (and who wants their gladius to snap off in battle?), and it's a pugio on his right.

I'm not denying common soldiers wore the cuirass, I just don't want to jump to conclusions, as exciting as they may be.

Cheers.

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - mcbishop - 09-24-2005

Quote:The problem is that there seems to be one school of archaeologists who seem to think that if they do not find an original artifact, the item depicted cannot have existed. In one case, an achaeologist has actually "redrawn" a monument in which a soldier clearly wears a muscle cuirass, complete with sculpted naval, and turned it into a lorica hamata!

They sound a bit like evidentialists, these archaeologist chappies. How can I apply to join their school? ;-)

Again, this relief can be explained by all the means that have been suggested so far, but it can equally be interpreted as a mail shirt (remember what Robinson said about depictions of these?) worn over scalloped lappets and pteryges (you only have to think of the two gentlemen of Veronawho wear scale shirts in this way).

Mike Bishop

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - john m roberts - 09-25-2005

Tarbicus:
Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War," p. 56, shows a short muscle cuirass from southern Italy with a straight lower rim. It ended at the bottom of the ribcage and apparently there are other examples.
Dan:
Do you know if the Romans had a lacquering process to waterproof rawhide? That is certainly how it would have been done in east Asia. Besides, lacquer can be made in many spiffy colors.

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Tarbicus - 09-25-2005

Quote:Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War," p. 56, shows a short muscle cuirass from southern Italy with a straight lower rim.

Thanks John. Do you know of any worn with the cingulum?

Cheers.

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Caballo - 09-25-2005

Mike Bishop wrote :"Again, this relief can be explained by all the means that have been suggested so far, but it can equally be interpreted as a mail shirt (remember what Robinson said about depictions of these?) worn over scalloped lappets and pteryges."

Except that there appears to be a rather well defined belly button?

(And certainly, while my belly is sadly rather too prominent ( Sad

) when I wear mail, my navel remains invisible)

Regards,

Britannicus

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Nectanebo - 09-25-2005

Quote:Mike Bishop wrote :"Again, this relief can be explained by all the means that have been suggested so far, but it can equally be interpreted as a mail shirt (remember what Robinson said about depictions of these?) worn over scalloped lappets and pteryges."

Except that there appears to be a rather well defined belly button?

(And certainly, while my belly is sadly rather too prominent ( ) when I wear mail, my navel remains invisible)

Regards,

Britannicus

As a fellow possessor of a very large belly (of the the Homerus Simpsonis type), you must either have a very impressive navel or don't wear a padded subarmalis under your lorica hammata. Smile

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - mcbishop - 09-25-2005

Quote:Mike Bishop wrote :"Again, this relief can be explained by all the means that have been suggested so far, but it can equally be interpreted as a mail shirt (remember what Robinson said about depictions of these?) worn over scalloped lappets and pteryges."

Except that there appears to be a rather well defined belly button?

In a world where the sculptors of Trajan's Column were quite capable of putting mail texture onto the surface of lorica seg, confusion between muscle (whether they be of metal, hide, or anything else) and mail cuirasses could easily arise and the hellenising influences that lurked behind all representational art was capable of producing some unusual mutants. We have to remember that even the best sculptural reliefs (like Annaius Daverzus) are not photographs and we don't even know that these were done from life, or the degree of knowledge on the part of the sculpor. Are those scales or lappets? Does the artist have time (or even the inclination) to care?

All I'm saying is that it could indeed be a muscled cuirass, but it could equally be a mail cuirass. We can't tell from the sculpture, only speculate. Informed speculation is a worthwhile pursuit, but it is nevertheless speculation, not proof or fact.

Mike Bishop

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - drsrob - 09-25-2005

Quote:A couple of thoughts:-
- The paludamentum (clearly seen on left shoulder, and possibly behind left arm and between legs); my understanding what that this was usually worn by senior officers only. Or is there some other symbolism (eg - and entirely conjecturally- he was on track for promotion, but died before receivng it)?
-Gladius worn on left side, with hand holding the pommel. Options- a usual sign of the centurion but also worn in a large number of auxillary scupltures. Were marines classed as auxillaries?

These details are the most significant ones. We might have to rethink our idea's of who wore the paludamentum. Alternatively this type of cloak (or draping) might not have been the paludamentum at all. Note that the bearskin of several 1st century signiferi is carried in a similar fashion over the left shoulder.

Deja Vu.... - Arthes - 09-25-2005

Greetings,
truly fascinating, what I am trying to work out is that Ii'm sure I have seen him before, but have been visiting family and off line for well over a week...... so where:? :? ?
Regards
Arthes

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Uwe Bahr - 09-26-2005

Quote:I'm not convinced about the whole cuirass thing; the bottom edge is flat unlike all the cuirasses I've seen except bell cuirasses. Also, are there any other examples of a cingulum being worn over a cuirass? It could have been a painted hamata (the sculptor may have not been up to the job of chiselling all those rings, or not paid enough) and the paint has simply worn away.

Tarbicus,

an example for a cingululm worn over a cuirass is shown on the famous Louvre relief - the soldier on the very left:

[Image: soldiers_relief_med.jpg]

Greets - Uwe

Re: New CLASSIS-soldier (!!) tombstone discovered in Italy - Tarbicus - 09-26-2005

Quote:an example for a cingululm worn over a cuirass..."

Thanks Uwe, much appreciated.

Cheers.