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+--- Thread: Vambraces (/showthread.php?tid=4372)
Re: Vambraces - hoplite14gr - 01-11-2006
Alright I hope they dont have all this thngs "maintenace" as they usually do.
Kind regards
Re: Vambraces - hoplite14gr - 01-11-2006
I will defintly try.
Kind regards
Re: Vambraces - Anonymous - 01-11-2006
I really liked that archaic Hoplite re-construction with all the armour. No wonder they got speared in the throat and mouth - what other options were there?!
Re: Vambraces - tlclark - 01-11-2006
Quick question:
Since vambraces were clearly in use in the archaic/early classical period, and vambraces obviously emerge again in the Late Medieval/Gothic period, why did they disappear the 1800 years in between?
They seem really serviceable, especially in a sword fight.
Why did they stop using them?
Travis
Re: Vambraces - tlclark - 01-11-2006
Quote:Travis, I think no body knows, Connolly just adds that : they were discovered in olympia, & there are more upper arms than lower ones.
Some are very elaborately decorated. Arm guards were very seldom used, as they are rarely shown in paintings. All disappeared at the end of the 6th century...
plate from the book:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... img161.jpg
Plates by Warry
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... img162.jpg
Connollys also got inspired in argos armour & helmet Stefan!
![[Image: argos_museum_4717_r1.jpg]](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Comerus/argos_museum_4717_r1.jpg)
They look just fabulous. Makes you want to be an archaic period Hoplite re-enactor doesn't it!
Has to be a mobility issue, y'think? Maybe the phalanx formations are so good, that they became superfluous. Who knows.
Travis
Re: Vambraces - john m roberts - 01-12-2006
For some reason, the supplemental pieces: thigh guards, vambraces, etc. seem to have survived in Italy for a much longer period, perhaps through the 4th century. In later eras the manica and segmented thigh guards served the same purpose, though the latter seem to have been confined to horsemen. A plaster relief from Pompeii shows the lower end of such a thigh guard peeping out from beneath the tunic of a mounted equites.
Re: Vambraces - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2006
Until Late Hellenistic period Greek and Romans did not caurry shields so protecting your arms in a cavalry malee perhaps necesitated the use of vambraces.
Kind regards
Re: Vambraces - tlclark - 01-13-2006
Quote:For some reason, the supplemental pieces: thigh guards, vambraces, etc. seem to have survived in Italy for a much longer period, perhaps through the 4th century. In later eras the manica and segmented thigh guards served the same purpose, though the latter seem to have been confined to horsemen. A plaster relief from Pompeii shows the lower end of such a thigh guard peeping out from beneath the tunic of a mounted equites.
Thanks. Does this mean that the Romans are later to adopt the phalanx or shield formations?
Come to think of it, there is one place that you DO see thigh guards, manica and vambraces in italy through the late empire, the gladiators.
Re: Vambraces - hoplite14gr - 01-13-2006
Romans started with the phalanx and kept it as a reserve (triarioi) until Marius reforms. Massed spearmen were introduced in the late roman and byzantine armies and then Darkness fell on the battle fields until the apearance of the scotish "shiltrons" and the swiss pikemen.
Kind regards
Re: Vambraces - Matthew Amt - 01-13-2006
Well, in the Etruscan period, the FRONT line of a Roman army was hoplites, the upper classes. They were backed up by more lightly armed and armored men, though all (except slingers) still had shields. So it was a phalanx. The interesting part is that the Romans seem to have been giving up their phalanx around 500 BC, and going to more small-unit formations with more javelins, at the same time that the Greeks are solidifying their phalanx and pushing javelins and light troops off to the flanks! The triarii were indeed a reserve and still armed with spears, but they were not necessarily more heavily armored than the hastati or principes who formed the 2 battle lines in front of them. In other words, the triarii are not the descendants of the old hoplites in any way.
Valete,
Matthew
Re: Vambraces - john m roberts - 01-14-2006
Back when wars took place a few days' walk from home, and when an aristocratic hoplite could affors an armor-bearer to schlep his heavy gear, the extra protection may have made sense. When the war was hundreds or even thousands of miles away, it's amazing how quickly men got rid of extraneous gear.
In Italy, adoption of the scutum may have made the extra limb protection obsolete.
Re: Vambraces - tlclark - 01-14-2006
Quote:Back when wars took place a few days' walk from home, and when an aristocratic hoplite could affors an armor-bearer to schlep his heavy gear, the extra protection may have made sense. When the war was hundreds or even thousands of miles away, it's amazing how quickly men got rid of extraneous gear.
In Italy, adoption of the scutum may have made the extra limb protection obsolete.
Well the hoplites still kept the greaves so obviously that was needed. My guess is that the shield covered the rest, so the rest was superfluous.
Travis
Re: Vambraces - hoplite14gr - 01-14-2006
80 cm Hoplon covers from the chin to the groin-well at least for a guy 180 cm tall. So either hoplites coved theit thighs "in crouching" position or as the hoplites webpage suggests they attcaked on the jog so aiming low might be difficult.
Kind regards
Re: Vambraces - Anonymous - 01-14-2006
Our aspides are in the range of 84-100cm, thus giving us cover from the chin to just above the knee. Greaves are useful, especially in the front rank.
John, your argument, that people wear less armour as they travel further to war seems to me to fail in every instance I consider. Romans going to Germany and Britain; Hoplites in the Anabasis and under Alexander; Crusaders, in every Crusade; Spaniards going to South America. Which examples did you have in mind? (No sarcasm intended).
I agree with you about the Scutum; it does seem to render protection, for all but the right arm, superfluous.
Re: Vambraces - john m roberts - 01-15-2006
Paul:
I was referring specifically to the ancient world, where soldiers mainly walked to the theater of war. Once other means of transportation became available, the weight of the equipment was no longer a major issue. The heavier, more protective gear in certain theaters sems to have been fabricated on location to meet specific threats.