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+--- Thread: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield (/showthread.php?tid=5159)
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 11-14-2006
Stephanos,
Can not bring up the Archaic warrior pic you posted... Yahoo says "error occurred", and for me to get lost...
BTW, Got the mailing today, will PM you ...
Ralph Izard
etc.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - hoplite14gr - 11-15-2006
I hope its ok now
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Ioannis - 11-15-2006
Thanks for that lovely image Stefane! By the way, have you seen the warrior reconstruction at the National Archaeological Museum?
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - spyros - 11-15-2006
Ioannis, I've sent a PM
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - hoplite14gr - 11-15-2006
Quote:Thanks for that lovely image Stefane! By the way, have you seen the warrior reconstruction at the National Archaeological Museum?
When was that done?
Kind regards
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-08-2007
I have two questions and would greatly appreciate input. I have read the many posts on the Boeotian shield and just have two issues. I have seen several vases with an offset porpax and grip closer to the edge in a vertical position on the shield, but I have also seen some that simply have two strips of leather or perhaps rope in place of the porpax. I have also read here about a possible center grip. What is the most accepted method of the three if there is one? The second question I have is of which shield patterns may have been more likely on this type of shield. I recently posted photos of an aspis I made with a pegasus as the pattern and would like to have something quite different for variety. After building the aspis, I have gained enough confidence to make a Boeotian and would like to start work fairly soon. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - hoplite14gr - 01-08-2007
Chris,
About shield patterns look on the Greek shield devices thread.
Have you decide on the time frame or city state for your shield?
White Pegasus was Corinthos. Red Pegasos Pherrae-Thessaly
There was no uniformity and shield bearing attachments in the Archaic period were a combination of personal choice and availability.
Center grip are few Geometric era roundshields in the Delphi Meuseum.
Hope I helped
Kind regards
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-08-2007
That does help. My current aspis is black and white (corinthian). I was aware that there wasn't much uniformity. I guess my main concern with the Boeotian as compared to the Apis is the amount of surface lost to the holes cut out. I am just not quite sure how some of the "wider" patterns would look on that style of shield. Almost all finished shields I have seen are Aspis and most ancient paintings I have seen always show the Boeotian on the warrior with the inside facing the viewer and the Aspis in the painting seem to show the patterned side. Would a Bull pattern or Ram be valid for that type of shield. I am just thinking the narrow point on their face could pass between the holes. Just a thought.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-08-2007
Actually, what would really help would be to help me place the Boeotian in the right time period. I am not going to ever get a "kit" to match the time period so I guess it really doesn't matter when. I just need to place it accurately in a century and then I can narrow the pattern down. I do plan on starting my Greek Panalopy later this year after I finish my Roman, but I want to do a Corinthian to matcht the timeframe of the shield I already made. Thanks.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - hoplite14gr - 01-08-2007
Try "Exekias Painter "Vases and you will see Archaic Period Spartans from the Skiritis and Pylos Morae emblems and with personal emblem of bull in the center.
Another option.
Two rams. 2 for Dioskouri and Ram for Ares for mercenary bodyguards of tyrants of the period
Kind regards
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-09-2007
Appreciate it. I'll post pics once I am done. Bought all the supplies today and traced the ring patterns on to the wood. I'll start cutting tomorrow and shape with a sander this weekend. I think it will only be a 14 day build since I have the supplies up front. Thanks again.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-09-2007
I have done google searches and am still having difficulty locating such emblems. Do you have pictures or a link to somewhere that would have one or a few of the emblems that you speak of? Also, vases look like they are mostly a clay color with black. What would likely colors have really been at the time? I saw the posts on patterns here, but with all the back and forth between you and "Lupus", I am not sure which ones are valid.......especially for the Boeotian. Bottom line, any links for desgin and colors suspected would be a great help. Thanks again.
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Chris B - 01-09-2007
To help, would a red shield with a black bull and a alternating black/white rim have been realistic. I have seen that pattern a few times on sites and kind of like it, but I don't want it if it is completely wrong. Also, would the Lambda have been used on a Boeotian?
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 01-09-2007
OK,
This is what I got from looking at all the pottery I can find, plus some things that Hoplite14gr was kind enough to provide me with. This is what I intend to do for my Boeotian, that is to go with my Cretan panoply that is based on the Afrati finds, circa 650 - 600. BTW, I cannot find a singe reference to any shield parts at Afrati. I cannot find the original publication either, so they may exist, but are not mentioned in the indirect references to the Afrati finds. If anyone has any references to Afrati, I really want to know about them before I make an academic Duh... Uh-Oh. A Mycenean ring from Crete in the shape of a Boeotian has almost exact shape and proportion to the one I am making and the ones found on pottery circa 650 - 500.
The porax in many pottery figures is off center towards the bottom. Why I do not know. In conjecture, this would give leverage to swing the shield into different positions that you would not usually do while using an aspis in a phalanx. This makes the shield top heavy. The two straps (cords) running parallel above the center may be to keep the Boeotian from tipping forward while allowing relatively free horizontal movement of the upper arm. In some figures the notches seem to be lower than the horizontal axis. This also may be from the distortion of the figure as a result of a curved vessel surface. The placement of the hand grip is sometimes near the rim but can be seen placed nearer the center in some figures. In most figures it is placed on center of the vertical axis. The aspis can have the hand grip placed above the horizontal axis. All of this is a generalization, so anybody who wants to correct me on anything please do so.
In any event, I am playing around right now with the exact position of the porax. I do intend to place parallel cords as described above. On Hoplite14gr's recomendation the interior will be lined with red leather. The porax will have separate wings that will be reposssed, based on the ones from Bari(?) illustrated in Connolly, Greece And Rome At War, pg. 52, figure 3. The pieces are cut, and sitting on the annealing bed in my unheated garage as we speak, but I am waiting a week or two for the record snow to melt and things to warm up a bit before proceeding. I am also going to make the side notches a little bigger than in the picture. The outer facing will be black leather and have center, and upper and lower devices, as on my avitar. Rim will be wave motif. The extreme outer rim will be rawhide for no other reason than coinage bearing a Boeotian shows a raised rim, and I don't want to try using bronze. Again there is the apparent negative evidence of any rim pieces (or anything else for that matter) recognized as from a Boeotian. Feel free to make criticisms and give suggestions before I go back to work on this thing.
LYKAON
(Greek mood)
otherwise:
Ralph Izard
Re: Boeotian/Dipylon Shield - Anonymous - 01-09-2007
Quote: I'll start cutting tomorrow and shape with a sander this weekend. I think it will only be a 14 day build since I have the supplies up front. Thanks again.
As you say, that's what you think! :lol: No offence, Chris, but I've learnt from bitter experience that it tends to take a lot longer than you think! :x If you do manage it in 14 days, let me know how you did it!