+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? (/showthread.php?tid=7931)
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Guy Stiebel - 01-23-2007
Martin,
The organic culture material from Masada is one of the largest collections ever found in this part of the world. Mind you that most of it relates to the rebels, although there are archaeological indications for early material (from King Herod's reign) and some Roman military equipment from c. mid-1st century AD.
As for textiles, you might like to consult: Sheffer A. and Granger-Taylor H., ‘Textiles from Masada: A preliminary Selection’, Masada IV, pp. 149-225.
More data, though slightly later, from the Second Revolt (132-135/6AD) was published by Yadin in his: Yadin Y., The finds from the Bar Kokhba period in the Cave of Letters, Jerusalem, 1963.
As far as military equipment made of organic material concerns we have the remains of some ten shield boards from Masada (all to be published in Masada VIII). In addition I am one of few men that may state that they have a vagina... Well, that is a leather scabbard that was uncovered at the site. Wooden stele of arrows are also attested, though they did not preserve as good as the Judaean Desert caves material did.
Guy Stiebel
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Caballo - 01-23-2007
"ten shield boards ..leather scabbard ...Wooden stele of arrows "
Leaving aside Guy's impressive anatomical idiosyncracies (
) , Masada VIII sounds like a must buy. Are the shield boards Roman or Rebel? (as far as anyone can tell)
Cheers
Re: Masada publication - D B Campbell - 01-23-2007
Quote:Just to set the records straight. The publication of the militaria from the excavations of Yadin at Masada will take place this year 2007, under the title Masada VIII.Glad to hear it, Guy.
Now what about Gamala?!
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Guy Stiebel - 01-23-2007
As for Gamala,
The collection of military equipment is rather vast (there are over 1600 arrowheads and some 2000 ballista balls). The study of the military fittings are currently under going editing process and are due to be submitted this winter.
Meanwhile, some preliminary details maybe found in:
Syon D., ‘Gamla: city of refuge’, in Berlin A.M. and Overman J.A. (eds.), The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History, and Ideology, London, 2002, pp. 134-153
and in more details in the following:
Stiebel G.D., ‘‘Dust to dust, ashes to ashes’ – Military equipment from destruction layers in Palestine’, Archäologie der Schlachtfelder – Militaria aus Zerstörungshorizonten, Tagungsakten der 14. ROMEC Konferenz Wien 2003, Carnuntum Jahrbuch 2005, pp. 99-108.
So, there is hope... (I think it was Albert who said that everything is relative in life :roll: )
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Peroni - 01-23-2007
I look forward to reading it all!
Thanks for the information Guy!
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 01-23-2007
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt Gamala the city in which josephus hid in a well and tricked the others into suicide? or was that Jotapata?
would be hilarious if not brilliant if they found that specific well!!!!
about the siege of Masada, I always get the impression that there were a lot more "forests" and trees around in first century Judaea, compared to the barren land you see today.... also there is a theory the woods round jerusalem were all cut down in various sieges throughout the ages, as well as building material...
is there any proof of Judaea haven been more lavishly vegetated during those days??
M.VIB.M.
(PS cant wait to see volume VIII!!)
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Martin Moser - 01-24-2007
Guy,
thanks for the information!
Quote:The organic culture material from Masada is one of the largest collections ever found in this part of the world. Mind you that most of it relates to the rebels, although there are archaeological indications for early material (from King Herod's reign) and some Roman military equipment from c. mid-1st century AD.
As for textiles, you might like to consult: Sheffer A. and Granger-Taylor H., ‘Textiles from Masada: A preliminary Selection’, Masada IV, pp. 149-225.
I expected the finds to be mostly rebel belongings, but given that the romans had been around a while already, they might also serve as indicators to what was worn by (at least) the civilian population in general. I'll see what I can find in the libraries around here from the Masada series.
Quote:More data, though slightly later, from the Second Revolt (132-135/6AD) was published by Yadin in his: Yadin Y., The finds from the Bar Kokhba period in the Cave of Letters, Jerusalem, 1963.
Yes, I have this one (very much recommended reading anyone!) and am in fact at the moment working (among other things) on a reconstruction of purse no.1, the one that contained the Babatha (was the name IIRC) archives :-) )
Many thanks!
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Caratacus - 01-24-2007
While we are at it Guy - any information on when the lorica segmentata from Gamala is going to see the light of (publication) day? I've always been intrigued by the 'sliding bolt' fitment on the back plate!
Caratacus (Mike Thomas)
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Guy Stiebel - 01-24-2007
Dear MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS (thank god for the cut and paste option):
* wasnt Gamala the city in which josephus hid in a well and tricked the others into suicide? or was that Jotapata?
well, it was a water cistern at Jotapata. Josephus did not tricked them to suicide, it was rather common solution... but was one of two who survived the lot drawing (though mind you that he is the source of the story).
* would be hilarious if not brilliant if they found that specific well!!!!
There are limits to the nature of data archaeology may provide you... Excavating a site for the destruction of which one posses historical narration we should be very careful with drawing conclusions, particularly historical ones. Still you might be interested with the water cistern filled with skeletal remains that was uncovered at the site (see in: Aviam M., ‘Yodefat/Jotapata, The archaeology of the first battle’, in Berlin A.M. and Overman J.A. (eds.), The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History, and Ideology, London, 2002, pp. 121-133.
* about the siege of Masada, I always get the impression that there were a lot more "forests" and trees around in first century Judaea, compared to the barren land you see today....
We do know from pollen samples that more trees were available in the riverbeds of the Judaean Desert. Still it was a desert! Speaking about trees you must understand that these were merely tamarisk rather than Sequoia trees.
* also there is a theory the woods round jerusalem were all cut down in various sieges throughout the ages, as well as building material...
It was very common to cut down plantation and forests during sieges. Josephus for example refers to this very act during the Roma siege of Jerusalem (AD70). It was done for building material purposes but also part of psychological war.
* is there any proof of Judaea haven been more lavishly vegetated during those days??
Like Albert one said: everything is relative...
Guy Stiebel
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Guy Stiebel - 01-24-2007
Martin,
* I expected the finds to be mostly rebel belongings, but given that the romans had been around a while already, they might also serve as indicators to what was worn by (at least) the civilian population in general.
There is a difference between martial dress and civilian dress (see Simon James's work on Dura!). Although the Romans were certainly around, the East always retained Hellenistic traditions and this is true to civil dress as well.
Reconstructing purse no. 1, I hope you remember that "pecunia non olet"...
Guy Stiebel
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 01-24-2007
Thank you very much for your extensive info Guy!!
indeed the water cistern with skeletal remains is very interesting!!
i will try and find it in the University library here in leiden.......
best wishes,
M.VIB.M.
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Guy Stiebel - 01-24-2007
Dear Mike (or Caratacus if I may),
* any information on when the lorica segmentata from Gamala is going to see the light of (publication) day?
Beside the lorica segementa of L. Magus you are seemingly referring to (with the sliding mechanism), there quite a few more fittings that will be part of the Gamala Volume II, the material for which is under going editing work now. It will be either late 2007 or early 2008.
Guy Stiebel
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 01-24-2007
Of course there are great problems for anyone wanting to excavate the Temple mount in Jerusalem, and not wanting to get into politics, i am also still wondering wether around the old city, the remains of the Roman siege-works/ legionary camps have ever been located or excavated... especially that of the X Fretensis.......
Since jerusalem has known almost fulltime occupation, by residents and military, i guess the Romans did clean up a lot after the founding of Aelia Capitolina, so there might not be much left...
What i have seen and read in an very! interesting book about the last days of Yeshua of Nazareth, (Last days in Jerusalem. A current study of the Easter week under editorial supervision of Prof. dr. David Flusser)
is that around the temple mount a lot of debris was found which the Romans just chucked down from the platform........ (excavations by prof. Mazar)
I am very interested in the Roman occupation of Judaea, apart from the ongoing investigations about the Zealots, Sicarii, the Qumran group, the Essenes, and also the historical facts around a group lead by Yeshua the Nazarener... (before it became a worldwide religion)
So was there very much found around Jerusalem itself too?
I know, a lot of questions.....................
But I am very happy you joined this forum!
M.VIB.M.
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Martin Moser - 01-24-2007
Guy,
Quote:There is a difference between martial dress and civilian dress (see Simon James's work on Dura!). Although the Romans were certainly around, the East always retained Hellenistic traditions and this is true to civil dress as well.
This is certainly true. OTOH, if you look at some of the items uncovered by Yadin, which undoubtedly belonged to Jews and not Romans, it shows that many everyday items were more or less standard whatever the user/owner (tunics, wooden plates, bronze containers, keys, sandals (cf. those from Egypt) and such).
Quote:Reconstructing purse no. 1, I hope you remember that "pecunia non olet"...
What's the one got to do with the other - another joke lost on me I'm afraid :?
thanks :-) )
Re: Masada Roman legionary camp site finds... where?? - Caratacus - 01-24-2007
Quote:Beside the lorica segementa of L. Magus you are seemingly referring to (with the sliding mechanism), there quite a few more fittings that will be part of the Gamala Volume II, the material for which is under going editing work now. It will be either late 2007 or early 2008.
That is good news! I shall certainly keep the weather eye peeled for that volume. Thanks for the info.
Caratacus (Mike Thomas)