English translation of "an sich" and "für si

[Jona Lendering]

An easy question, but my Dutch-English dictionary does not help me: how can I best translate the German expressions "an sich" and "für sich"?

[L C Cinna]

I'd suggest "actually" but dependes on the sentence and context. most of the time it's better to avoid literal translation imho.

[Jona Lendering]

dependes on the sentence and context.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that:

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a civilization an sich.

[Viventius]

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a civilization an sich.

Could be:

as such

or even, to use the Latin, which gets used in English:

per se

Either of those seem to fit the context.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

dependes on the sentence and context.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that:

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a civilization an sich.

hm, why use it at all? "an sich / für sich" is mostly used to reiterate a fact that is (or should be ) already clear from the same sentence.

... but to convey the stylistic meaning I'd think this would do the job.

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a specific civilization.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

wow, Viventius.

you beat me by a second. :lol:

[Jona Lendering]

hm, why use it at all? "an sich / für sich" is mostly used to reiterate a fact that is (or should be ) already clear from the same sentence.

... but to convey the stylistic meaning I'd think this would do the job.

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a specific civilization.

I have a feeling that this is something else; Schliemann was interested in history, generally, and not in the material culture, generally. "Of a specific civilization" is -I think- something else.

I think I'll settle for "as such"; there is a difference between
- being interested in the material culture of a civilization
and
- interested in the material culture of a civilization as such

because in the second example, it is clearer that S. was not interested in the material culture of no matter what civilization.

[Paullus Scipio]

Quite right, Jona, there is a clear difference......Viventius has 'hit the nail on the head' ! D

....if you wanted an alternative you could also say ' for it's own sake', but 'as such' or 'per se' would be best,,,,

[Jona Lendering]

'for it's own sake'

That's the one! Thanks.

[L C Cinna]

dependes on the sentence and context.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that:

Heinrich Schliemann wanted to solve "historical questions" and was not really interested in the material culture of a civilization an sich.

ah ok, well the others have solved it already. I first thought you meant the whole phrase "an und für sich".