Backing hamata doubling with rawhide

[Matt Lukes]

Doubtless it was- I read recently that bark tanning of leather can take a REALLY long time; one source says 6-8 weeks...

[caiusbeerquitius]

I did, and that's where I got my info from I wasn't referring to Junkelmann's opinion, I was referring to yours, but I obviously worded it badly. I certainly consider five penetrations with wooden tipped, blunt javelins in a single session to be rather alarming, which you seem to say yourself supporting rawhide as a much better protection

Phew.... I thought I overlooked something...
Junkelmann sees in this basically that the energy from javelins thrown from a running horse´s back is enormous. He did not actually consider if his shield reconstructions might possibly be wrong...
Apart from that, archaeological evidence seems not to support leather covered shields. I know of none.

[Matt Lukes]

What I would think would be useful to determine are:

1) If rawhide is equal or superior to thick tanned leather (10oz or more)
2) If there's any significant difference afforded by the placement of the extra material under the doubler or just as part of the subarmalis
3) If there's any difference in effectiveness between waterproofed rawhide and waterproof thick leather
4) Whether or not leather would indeed need be waterproofed to remain effective
5) Does the oil waterproofing affect the performance of rawhide and does it indeed completely prevent the rawhide from becoming pliable.
6) Is there any difference between the performance of nautral and bleached rawhide.

Does anyone know if bleached rawhide is more resistent to putrification than natural rawhide?

[FAVENTIANVS]

John, with rawhide you mean the same material used to make th dogs cheweing bones?

[John M McDermott]

Yes, I mean the dog bone stuff, only in an entire half side.

Remember, rawhide was used to cover shields. There was a history channel program showing an experiment when a medieval shield was covered in rawhide. The shield was then subject to tests which showed that in order to damage the shield with the rawhide, the force required was four times that which an average man was capable of delivering. Also, medieval arrows shattered and bouned of the rawhide.

[FAVENTIANVS]

It makes sense then.

[Emeraldweapon7d]

I fryed my brain combing through the padded armor thread in one sitting looking for how to apply linseed oil to rawhide to make more water resistant, unfoutunately i must have missed the bit i was looking for because i still don't know how. can somone pleast tell me which page it was on?

[arklore70]

John,
how much does the doubler now weigh with the added doe skin and raw hide backing?

Do you know about how much it might have weighed prior to adding the raw hide and doe skin?

Any future ballistic or kinetic energy tests in store for this piece?

V/r
Mike

[Emeraldweapon7d]

scratch my last post, i found it. so if i wanted to waterproof rawhide a bit i'd want to boiled linseed oil, right?

[John M McDermott]

I haven't weighed it, but the rawhide and doeskin maybe weighs 1-2 pounds maximum.

As far as ballistic tests go my capacity here is limited to having my 10 year old hit me with a fire place poker. It should be tried, though. In sum you would be protected by one layer of mail, the rawhide and doeskin, a second layer of mail and a subarmalis.

I might add, this is very light, comfortable armor to wear.

[Jozef W]

Salve,

I'm new to the board, though not to many faces. I have been reading many threads and finally worked out the problems of registering, so I can now post!

In regards to the topic at hand, I have actually been convinced for some time now that the doubling should be a full backing instead of just edging. I know there is not much (if any) concrete evidence to account for it, but it has always made sense to me from a practical point of view.

In sum you would be protected by one layer of mail, the rawhide and doeskin, a second layer of mail and a subarmalis.

Not sure if there was substantial padding or reinforcement such as rawhide under the doubling, or just lower ounced leather, but considering that the most energy potential (from a sword) comes from a downward trajectory, I would certainly want my shoulders to be as protected as possible.

Another benefit to having the leather backing is that is gives the maile a smoother surface to sit on. Since some of the strength of the maile relies on its ability to transfer energy to its sister rings, the better it is laid out (flatter), the more energy potential it can absorb. If the maile is sitting atop another line of maile, you can get bunching and a disruption to the flow of the pattern. This leaves the possibility of higher points sticking up from others, which will absorb most of the energy and be exerted upon at that one point, or at least moreso than if the blow is being transferred over a larger area.

In regards to the issues with the rawhide rotting, I won't specifically look at rain, etc. since it is covered elsewhere, but sweat certainly is an issue. I haven't seen it, but it is possible that the doublings where hung from the soldiers' backs when not engaged. This would aid in cooling, and would keep the leather (or any organic matter) from the sweat.

Any thoughts?

[Dan Howard]

I was worried about sweat also. How flexible will the rawhide remain if it is treated with enough linseed oil to make it waterproof??

[Caius Fabius]

Another advantage to the shoulder doubling yoke is something I just noticed, in that you can have the neck split a bit down the back, which is covered by the yoke, allowing a tighter fit across the neck and throat, but still allowing you to get your head into the mail.

[M. Demetrius]

The toughness of rawhide was known to other cultures, of course. Plains AmerIndians made round bucklers from a buffalo hump, and these were tough enough to deflect arrows, and even bullets of the day, though the latter were able to penetrate when hitting the shield near perpendicularly.

Of course, that's not Roman, but demonstrates how tough rawhide is. Anyone who has cut any can attest to how much "harder" it is than tanned leather.

Rawhide is many times easier to make than tanned leather. Strip off the hair and flesh, wash and dry the skin and it's rawhide.

Tanning is many steps and a long softening process. Done that. It's a WHOLE lot of work. I buy tanned leather now, and don't intend to change that habit.