03-03-2002, 06:23 AM
You guys didn't think you could have a discussion on my pet subject without me did you I hope you'll forgive me starting a new thread for it though, as the discussion on the 'battered helmets' thread isn't really about battered helmets anymore.<br>
<br>
I think Dan's points are interesting, and I'm certainly open to the idea that Kalkriese was actually a minor engagement associated with Arminius' uprising rather than part of the main event. That said, there are still some very good reasons, IMO, to continue to regard it as a site of at least part of the main battle.<br>
<br>
<b> (i) The Distribution of the Finds</b><br>
If, as Dan argues, the site is one of a detachment of Roman forces which was attacked as part of the uprising, we'd expect the finds to be much more heavily concentrated, particularly if the wall was a Roman construction rather than a Germanic one. In fact, the finds are distributed over a 10-15 kilometer area, beginning with some about 3-4 kilometers south-east of the Kalkrieseberg, with the finds continuing around the curve of the mountain, increasing in quantity, until the main deposits are found between the north flank of the mountain and the moorlands. If this was a detachment attacked in their camp, why do we find this pattern of deposits? The pattern seems to fit a unit attacked on the march much better.<br>
<br>
<b> (ii) The Nature of the Finds</b><br>
The variety of objects found is another indication that this was more than a centuria surprised by the rebels. Apart from fragments of weapons and armour, there are 'a relatively large number of tool and instruments with various functions ... (and) not a few of these objects can be attributed, in fact to the non-fighting untis of the Roman army.' (Schluter p145-146). These include surveying equipment, wood and leather-working tools and surgical instruments. The famous silvered face mask may have belonged to a standard bearer, or could be an indication of the presence of cavalry and luxury items like the jewelled scabbard mount and the fitting from an ivory inlaid couch are also possible indications of high ranking officers. If this was a smaller unit, then it certainly seemed to include a number of the kinds of ancilliary elements you'd expect to find in the main body of Varus' army - artesans, surveyors, surgeons and officers. This is not to say such a detachment definitely <i> wouldn't</i> include these troops, but this evidence lends itself better to the idea that these remains are from the main force of Varus' army, not a detachment.<br>
<br>
<b> (iii) The Mules and Horse Tack</b><br>
A large number of the bones found were those of pack-mules and a generally corresponding amount of tack - bits, harness mounts, yoke-mounts and belt spacers. Again, a small detachment may well have had a large number of mules in their camp, but these finds are further good indicators that this force was on the move when attacked.<br>
<br>
<b> (iv)The Wall</b><br>
There are a number of problems with the idea that the earthworks found on the site were Roman in origin. As Jasper has pointed out, the wall has no facing ditch - unlike Roman earthworks of this type. Dan has argued that perhaps the wall was thrown up quickly in the face of an impending (or already occuring) attack, but the fact that large sections of the wall have a core of shaped chalk blocks argues against this. Taken with the fact that the wall is not an enclosure, it still seems most likely that these works were built by the Germanic forces as part of their trap.<br>
<br>
<b> (v) The Buried Human Remains</b><br>
Most of the human remains found so far seem to have originally spent some time exposed to the elements, before being buried. This fits with Tacitus' account of Germanicus' visit to the site of Varus' last stand and his burial of the exposed bones they found scattered across the battlefield. Unless the Germanics were nice enough to come back to the site of their massacre of our supposed small detachment and bury them, or unless Germanicus or some other later Roman commander found our dead detachment and gave them a burial much as had been done with the remains of the main force, this is another indication that Kalkriese <i> is</i> the<br>
site of both the last stand and Germanicus' later burials.<br>
<br>
Again, none of this adds up to any conclusive evidence that this was the site of part of the battle against the main force of Varus' army and if, as Dan suggests, some other site is revealed as the <b> real</b> battlefield no-one would be more delighted than me. But until then I'm still fairly comfortable with Schluter's conclusion that this is the real thing. As he argues:<br>
<i><br>
Any view that the site at Kalkriese is to be considered merely as a secondary theatre of war and not the principal battlefield is questionable, not only because of the great extent of the area over which finds have been made, but also because of the state of preservation, location and composition of the finds. They confirm that not only were Roman fighting forces - legionary divisions, auxiliary units and cavalry - caught up in the fighting, but also that all the non-fighting specialists which one would normally expect in a Roman army, that is, the entire retinue of craftsmen, surveyors, clerks, doctors and others, were also affected by the German attacks.<br>
</i><br>
Schluter p. 154<br>
<br>
While it's true that the human remains don't indicate a death toll in the thousands, it would be a bit foolhardy to try to assess the size of the Roman force from the remains excavated so far. These reamins have been recovered from certain parts of the site where conditions are more favourable for the preservation of organic material. Across most of the site virtually nothing organic has survived and across most of the site only metal, ceramic and glass objects remain. Secondly, since the fighting went on for several days and probably ranged over a wide area as the Romans tried to fight their way out of Arminius' trap, we wouldn't expect the majority of the remains to be found at Kalkriese.<br>
<br>
BTW - I don't want to see the monument at Detmold moved north though - I'd actually prefer to see that winged-helmeted Nineteenth Century monstrosity blown up to be honest.<br>
Cheers,<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
<br>
I think Dan's points are interesting, and I'm certainly open to the idea that Kalkriese was actually a minor engagement associated with Arminius' uprising rather than part of the main event. That said, there are still some very good reasons, IMO, to continue to regard it as a site of at least part of the main battle.<br>
<br>
<b> (i) The Distribution of the Finds</b><br>
If, as Dan argues, the site is one of a detachment of Roman forces which was attacked as part of the uprising, we'd expect the finds to be much more heavily concentrated, particularly if the wall was a Roman construction rather than a Germanic one. In fact, the finds are distributed over a 10-15 kilometer area, beginning with some about 3-4 kilometers south-east of the Kalkrieseberg, with the finds continuing around the curve of the mountain, increasing in quantity, until the main deposits are found between the north flank of the mountain and the moorlands. If this was a detachment attacked in their camp, why do we find this pattern of deposits? The pattern seems to fit a unit attacked on the march much better.<br>
<br>
<b> (ii) The Nature of the Finds</b><br>
The variety of objects found is another indication that this was more than a centuria surprised by the rebels. Apart from fragments of weapons and armour, there are 'a relatively large number of tool and instruments with various functions ... (and) not a few of these objects can be attributed, in fact to the non-fighting untis of the Roman army.' (Schluter p145-146). These include surveying equipment, wood and leather-working tools and surgical instruments. The famous silvered face mask may have belonged to a standard bearer, or could be an indication of the presence of cavalry and luxury items like the jewelled scabbard mount and the fitting from an ivory inlaid couch are also possible indications of high ranking officers. If this was a smaller unit, then it certainly seemed to include a number of the kinds of ancilliary elements you'd expect to find in the main body of Varus' army - artesans, surveyors, surgeons and officers. This is not to say such a detachment definitely <i> wouldn't</i> include these troops, but this evidence lends itself better to the idea that these remains are from the main force of Varus' army, not a detachment.<br>
<br>
<b> (iii) The Mules and Horse Tack</b><br>
A large number of the bones found were those of pack-mules and a generally corresponding amount of tack - bits, harness mounts, yoke-mounts and belt spacers. Again, a small detachment may well have had a large number of mules in their camp, but these finds are further good indicators that this force was on the move when attacked.<br>
<br>
<b> (iv)The Wall</b><br>
There are a number of problems with the idea that the earthworks found on the site were Roman in origin. As Jasper has pointed out, the wall has no facing ditch - unlike Roman earthworks of this type. Dan has argued that perhaps the wall was thrown up quickly in the face of an impending (or already occuring) attack, but the fact that large sections of the wall have a core of shaped chalk blocks argues against this. Taken with the fact that the wall is not an enclosure, it still seems most likely that these works were built by the Germanic forces as part of their trap.<br>
<br>
<b> (v) The Buried Human Remains</b><br>
Most of the human remains found so far seem to have originally spent some time exposed to the elements, before being buried. This fits with Tacitus' account of Germanicus' visit to the site of Varus' last stand and his burial of the exposed bones they found scattered across the battlefield. Unless the Germanics were nice enough to come back to the site of their massacre of our supposed small detachment and bury them, or unless Germanicus or some other later Roman commander found our dead detachment and gave them a burial much as had been done with the remains of the main force, this is another indication that Kalkriese <i> is</i> the<br>
site of both the last stand and Germanicus' later burials.<br>
<br>
Again, none of this adds up to any conclusive evidence that this was the site of part of the battle against the main force of Varus' army and if, as Dan suggests, some other site is revealed as the <b> real</b> battlefield no-one would be more delighted than me. But until then I'm still fairly comfortable with Schluter's conclusion that this is the real thing. As he argues:<br>
<i><br>
Any view that the site at Kalkriese is to be considered merely as a secondary theatre of war and not the principal battlefield is questionable, not only because of the great extent of the area over which finds have been made, but also because of the state of preservation, location and composition of the finds. They confirm that not only were Roman fighting forces - legionary divisions, auxiliary units and cavalry - caught up in the fighting, but also that all the non-fighting specialists which one would normally expect in a Roman army, that is, the entire retinue of craftsmen, surveyors, clerks, doctors and others, were also affected by the German attacks.<br>
</i><br>
Schluter p. 154<br>
<br>
While it's true that the human remains don't indicate a death toll in the thousands, it would be a bit foolhardy to try to assess the size of the Roman force from the remains excavated so far. These reamins have been recovered from certain parts of the site where conditions are more favourable for the preservation of organic material. Across most of the site virtually nothing organic has survived and across most of the site only metal, ceramic and glass objects remain. Secondly, since the fighting went on for several days and probably ranged over a wide area as the Romans tried to fight their way out of Arminius' trap, we wouldn't expect the majority of the remains to be found at Kalkriese.<br>
<br>
BTW - I don't want to see the monument at Detmold moved north though - I'd actually prefer to see that winged-helmeted Nineteenth Century monstrosity blown up to be honest.<br>
Cheers,<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
