03-04-2002, 12:22 PM
Dan wrote:<br>
<i><br>
Greetings Tim, I was wondering when you would finally join in! First, I want to congratulate you on your fine website, and unique approach to a film project. I wish it the best success, and if I can ever be of assistance in some "reenactment" capacity should it reach fruition, please do not hesitate to ask. Actually I have been meaning to contact you at your site with some ideas, but just handn't gotten around to it yet.<br>
</i><br>
Thanks for the encouraging words Dan. Any ideas or comments you may have would be very welcome on the Varus Forum I can assure you, as I've been a fan of your work for many years.<br>
<i><br>
I ended up wallowing in a "swamp" on our Army base here, getting pounded on by Germans as clutched the Aquila. Then, just last year, drove all the way to North Wales for the "Lost Legions of Varus" for British Channel four (I think), and again, with eagle in hand, fought off some wild Celtic extras in a (fabricated) but very effective and wet thunder storm (which finally ruined my original, red feather crest). And then suffered the indignity of lying in the mud in the still pouring "rain" with the "Germans" stripping my phalera, etc.<br>
</i><br>
I glad to hear the authenticity of these productions didn't extend to you being burnt alive as a sacrifice to Wodanaz and Tiwaz or having your severed head nailed to a tree. One of the producers of the 'Lost Legions' documentary contacted me a while back and we had a good e-mail exchange on various matters. He promised to send me a copy of the finished product, but unfortunately it never arrived. It hasn't been shown on Australian TV yet, so if anyone knows how I can get hold of a copy I'd be very grateful.<br>
<i><br>
As much as I too wanted "to believe" I was unconvinced Kalkriese could possibly be the Varus battlefield due to the Germanic earthworks in such close proximity to the remains of Roman draft animals. I never would doubt the abilities of the Germans to build a defensive earthwork, this was done in the bronze age, and I suspect even in paleolithic times. What I have a problem with is the fact that if this was indeed a Germanic obstacle, one would assume that it would have been met by Roman combat units, which normally would be in the vanguard. Everything I have ever read indicates that the baggage was normally kept to the rear. In this case it seems that the baggage train was used as the Roman attack force with the task of assaulting the German defensive berm!<br>
<br>
</i><br>
I'm as sceptical as you are regarding any use of squads of 'elite Roman attack mules' at Kalkriese, as I doubt this is what the evidence indicates. Firstly, we know from Dio's account that Varus' column was in some disarray even before the first ambush, largely due to the nature of the terrain and the terrible weather conditions. This disorder was made worse by the constant attacks once the trap was sprung and Varus' attempts to pull his forces together and counter-attack effectively were, again, severely hampered by the terrain. The bulk of the baggage train was abandoned or burnt quite early in the encounter, so whatever force managed to make it to Kalkriese would probably have been accompanied by the bare essentials in this regard.<br>
<br>
Given the events of the days leading up to the final encounter at Kalkriese, I think the idea that the remnants of the Roman column had the kind of order you're envisaging is pretty unlikely. I'd place pretty heavy emphasis on the word 'remnants' there, as Dio also tells us that the majority of the casualties had already been sustained in the previous days' fighting. The force that made it to Kalkriese was likely to have been fairly small and in very bad shape after almost four days of sustained combat on the run in appalling conditions. I'm sure some order was still being maintained, but I certainly don't picture a formed column with a vanguard and a baggae train.<br>
<br>
As I understand it, most of the mule bones were recovered from the burial pit and from the depressions in which some bones were preserved, so I'm not sure how we can build up a picture of what forces assaulted the earthworks and where the Roman pack animals were at the time. There's no doubt that a mule skeleton was found under a collapsed portion of the wall, but how it got there is always going to be pure speculation. Perhaps it bolted in that direction during, or after, the fighting. Or perhaps the Roman force, on finding their path blocked at both ends, decided that making a break through the earthworks at a weak point and fighting their way up the slopes of the Kalkrieseberg was the only way to escape - with our mule a casualty of the abortive breakout. The fact that this mule's bronze bell had straw wrapped around its clapper to muffle it certainly indicates that the Romans were trying to sneak somewhere with the animal at some point, but we can play this game of 'build a story from the scanty evidence' a hundred different ways. I still can't see that this evidence substantially contradicts the idea that this was the site of Varus' last stand.<br>
<i><br>
With some simple mathematics, one soon calculates that if the head of the Roman column contacted the Germans at "the berm", the baggage train would be so far back, thattheir location could no longer be considered at "Kalkreise". Is there a plausible explanation for this that I somehow<br>
missed? Please, I want "to believe" too!<br>
</i><br>
I actually have little desire "to believe" - I'm more interested in what the (scanty) available evidence can tell us. Based on that evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that the force that made it to Kalkriese was a remnant of the one which had originally set out from the Weser and that it's likely it was not in great shape. What size it was, what order it had and where its pack animals were in the line of march (if, indeed it still had that degree of cohesion) are all things we simply can't know.<br>
<i><br>
If we begin our doubts at this stage, everything else unravels as well. The fact that a few medical instruments were found hardly indicates this was the legionary medical staff. Such instruments are common finds at even small Roman posts. I suspect every Roman century had some medical instruments and a detailed medical orderly. I also suspect some soldiers had some of these instruments in their own kit for such mundane tasks as removing splinters or scooping earwax from ears. I wouldn't be surprised if every Roman contubernium had a shared set of a few basic instruments. Every Roman century probably had some surveying instruments too ...<br>
</i><br>
Fine, and I've already agreed that these artefacts aren't conclusive proof that the force destroyed at Kalkriese wasn't a detachment caught up in the rebellion rather than part of, or the core remnants of, Varus' main column. Taken together with other evidence, however, this remains a very reasonable conclusion. A detachment may have included surveyors, clerks, surgeons, craftsmen or people who at least used their equipment. But if this <b> was</b> a remnant of Varus' main force, and one centred on the surviving senior commanders and standard bearers and therefore the focus of Arminius' final assaults, then we'd expect just these ancilliary elements to be represented. These finds are good indicators that this hypothesis is sound, without making it anything like a certainty. I don't think anyone (other than 'true believers') has ever said it was a certainty.<br>
<i><br>
... and a possible bit off of a piece of higher grade furniture hardly suggests it came off of "Varus's personal litter". Has a "Roman litter" ever been positively found before, to suggest the provenance of the piece in question?<br>
</i><br>
Apparently the fitting in question is analogous to a similar piece found at Haltern. Anyone who claims it was from "Varus' personal litter" is being fanciful, but the conclusion that it was from a higher-ranking officer's kit is reasonable and further supports the idea that some of those who died at Kalkriese were senior Roman commanders, which further supports the idea that command elements were amongst those killed there. Until we find something with 'P. Quinctilius Varus was here' carved on it, we can't conclude that Varus was definitely amongst them.<br>
<i><br>
The apparent, complete disintrigration of thousands of bones seems a bit of a cop-out as well, especially since they are reasonalbly well presevered where they have found them. I am sure they have among their equipment Ground-penetrating radar, and if all of the bones "sadly disintrigrated", they could still locate the alledged burial pits by these means. This is especially so, since they already found a few pits, so they would know exactly what anomolies to look for in the print outs. If there are more burial pits there, teeth and the most resilient bone fragments would certainly still be there.<br>
</i><br>
And perhaps they are, and perhaps further excavations will find them. But you still seem to be assuming that Varus' force was substantially intact when it reached Kalkriese - I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Large numbers of the Roman force would have died, become separated from the command elements or have made a break for it (like Vala's unit) long before then, so the force that was finally pinned down at Kalkriese may well have been fairly small. Substantial numbers of this reduced force would have died in the final stages of the fighting, but we know that at least some survived and were captured. Some of these were later massacred, others sacrificed and others taken as slaves. Of those that were killed in the fighting, we know their bones were exposed to the elements and scavengers for some years before <b> some</b> of them were burined by Germanicus' men - and it's unlikely this was anything like all of them. Then at least <b> some</b> of those buried were dug up again by the Germanics after Germanicus withdrew, and <b> some</b> of them were reburied by a second Roman expedition years later still. Given the probable small size of the force at Kalkriese in the first place (not 20,000 men, that's for certain), the fact that not all of them were killed, the fact their remains lay exposed, were buried, were exposed again and then were reburied <i> and</i> the fact that substantial areas of the site were not condusive to the preservation of organic material, I'd actually be rather more surprised if we did find the remains of 'thousands' of dead Romans. The extent of the finds of human remains seems quite logical and in keeping with what we know about the site and the sequence of events before their deposit. It's actually much more surprising that we have the amount of human remains we've found at all.<br>
<i><br>
I could go on and on, but there is no point. As in religion, true "believers" will always have faith despite the evidence to the contrary, and "sceptics" will be damned for their alledged heresay. I'm a "believer" too though. I have great faith that even under the worst of cirumstances, and the (Teutoburger debacle had to be one of the worst), that the Roman army was still too professional to attack a fortified position blocking their escape and salvation, with their baggage train (and provincial governor's litter).<br>
</i><br>
Determining who attacked where and with what is quite beyond the evidence available to us. Taking that evidence into account, I'd say that the idea that a remnant force centred on Varus and his officers tried to take the route around the Kalkrieseberg to find their way back to the Lippe, was ambushed from a prepared position, cut off, pinned against the moorlands and destroyed is a reasonable one given the nature of the archaeological finds and the accounts we have of Varus' last stand. Whether this idea is actually absolutely true is something we're unlikely to ever know, of course, but I still find it more convincing than any of the alternative interpretations that I've seen so far.<br>
<br>
I'm also a 'sceptic' in the true sense of the word - someone who assesses the evidence and makes a provisional judgement based on their understanding of it. So feel free to present any arguments you like - I'd be very interested to hear them since I am not a 'true believer' or anything like one. And its discussions like this which test opposing ideas and so are fruitful to open-minded inquirers on both sides.<br>
Cheers Dan,<br>
<br>
<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
<i><br>
Greetings Tim, I was wondering when you would finally join in! First, I want to congratulate you on your fine website, and unique approach to a film project. I wish it the best success, and if I can ever be of assistance in some "reenactment" capacity should it reach fruition, please do not hesitate to ask. Actually I have been meaning to contact you at your site with some ideas, but just handn't gotten around to it yet.<br>
</i><br>
Thanks for the encouraging words Dan. Any ideas or comments you may have would be very welcome on the Varus Forum I can assure you, as I've been a fan of your work for many years.<br>
<i><br>
I ended up wallowing in a "swamp" on our Army base here, getting pounded on by Germans as clutched the Aquila. Then, just last year, drove all the way to North Wales for the "Lost Legions of Varus" for British Channel four (I think), and again, with eagle in hand, fought off some wild Celtic extras in a (fabricated) but very effective and wet thunder storm (which finally ruined my original, red feather crest). And then suffered the indignity of lying in the mud in the still pouring "rain" with the "Germans" stripping my phalera, etc.<br>
</i><br>
I glad to hear the authenticity of these productions didn't extend to you being burnt alive as a sacrifice to Wodanaz and Tiwaz or having your severed head nailed to a tree. One of the producers of the 'Lost Legions' documentary contacted me a while back and we had a good e-mail exchange on various matters. He promised to send me a copy of the finished product, but unfortunately it never arrived. It hasn't been shown on Australian TV yet, so if anyone knows how I can get hold of a copy I'd be very grateful.<br>
<i><br>
As much as I too wanted "to believe" I was unconvinced Kalkriese could possibly be the Varus battlefield due to the Germanic earthworks in such close proximity to the remains of Roman draft animals. I never would doubt the abilities of the Germans to build a defensive earthwork, this was done in the bronze age, and I suspect even in paleolithic times. What I have a problem with is the fact that if this was indeed a Germanic obstacle, one would assume that it would have been met by Roman combat units, which normally would be in the vanguard. Everything I have ever read indicates that the baggage was normally kept to the rear. In this case it seems that the baggage train was used as the Roman attack force with the task of assaulting the German defensive berm!<br>
<br>
</i><br>
I'm as sceptical as you are regarding any use of squads of 'elite Roman attack mules' at Kalkriese, as I doubt this is what the evidence indicates. Firstly, we know from Dio's account that Varus' column was in some disarray even before the first ambush, largely due to the nature of the terrain and the terrible weather conditions. This disorder was made worse by the constant attacks once the trap was sprung and Varus' attempts to pull his forces together and counter-attack effectively were, again, severely hampered by the terrain. The bulk of the baggage train was abandoned or burnt quite early in the encounter, so whatever force managed to make it to Kalkriese would probably have been accompanied by the bare essentials in this regard.<br>
<br>
Given the events of the days leading up to the final encounter at Kalkriese, I think the idea that the remnants of the Roman column had the kind of order you're envisaging is pretty unlikely. I'd place pretty heavy emphasis on the word 'remnants' there, as Dio also tells us that the majority of the casualties had already been sustained in the previous days' fighting. The force that made it to Kalkriese was likely to have been fairly small and in very bad shape after almost four days of sustained combat on the run in appalling conditions. I'm sure some order was still being maintained, but I certainly don't picture a formed column with a vanguard and a baggae train.<br>
<br>
As I understand it, most of the mule bones were recovered from the burial pit and from the depressions in which some bones were preserved, so I'm not sure how we can build up a picture of what forces assaulted the earthworks and where the Roman pack animals were at the time. There's no doubt that a mule skeleton was found under a collapsed portion of the wall, but how it got there is always going to be pure speculation. Perhaps it bolted in that direction during, or after, the fighting. Or perhaps the Roman force, on finding their path blocked at both ends, decided that making a break through the earthworks at a weak point and fighting their way up the slopes of the Kalkrieseberg was the only way to escape - with our mule a casualty of the abortive breakout. The fact that this mule's bronze bell had straw wrapped around its clapper to muffle it certainly indicates that the Romans were trying to sneak somewhere with the animal at some point, but we can play this game of 'build a story from the scanty evidence' a hundred different ways. I still can't see that this evidence substantially contradicts the idea that this was the site of Varus' last stand.<br>
<i><br>
With some simple mathematics, one soon calculates that if the head of the Roman column contacted the Germans at "the berm", the baggage train would be so far back, thattheir location could no longer be considered at "Kalkreise". Is there a plausible explanation for this that I somehow<br>
missed? Please, I want "to believe" too!<br>
</i><br>
I actually have little desire "to believe" - I'm more interested in what the (scanty) available evidence can tell us. Based on that evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that the force that made it to Kalkriese was a remnant of the one which had originally set out from the Weser and that it's likely it was not in great shape. What size it was, what order it had and where its pack animals were in the line of march (if, indeed it still had that degree of cohesion) are all things we simply can't know.<br>
<i><br>
If we begin our doubts at this stage, everything else unravels as well. The fact that a few medical instruments were found hardly indicates this was the legionary medical staff. Such instruments are common finds at even small Roman posts. I suspect every Roman century had some medical instruments and a detailed medical orderly. I also suspect some soldiers had some of these instruments in their own kit for such mundane tasks as removing splinters or scooping earwax from ears. I wouldn't be surprised if every Roman contubernium had a shared set of a few basic instruments. Every Roman century probably had some surveying instruments too ...<br>
</i><br>
Fine, and I've already agreed that these artefacts aren't conclusive proof that the force destroyed at Kalkriese wasn't a detachment caught up in the rebellion rather than part of, or the core remnants of, Varus' main column. Taken together with other evidence, however, this remains a very reasonable conclusion. A detachment may have included surveyors, clerks, surgeons, craftsmen or people who at least used their equipment. But if this <b> was</b> a remnant of Varus' main force, and one centred on the surviving senior commanders and standard bearers and therefore the focus of Arminius' final assaults, then we'd expect just these ancilliary elements to be represented. These finds are good indicators that this hypothesis is sound, without making it anything like a certainty. I don't think anyone (other than 'true believers') has ever said it was a certainty.<br>
<i><br>
... and a possible bit off of a piece of higher grade furniture hardly suggests it came off of "Varus's personal litter". Has a "Roman litter" ever been positively found before, to suggest the provenance of the piece in question?<br>
</i><br>
Apparently the fitting in question is analogous to a similar piece found at Haltern. Anyone who claims it was from "Varus' personal litter" is being fanciful, but the conclusion that it was from a higher-ranking officer's kit is reasonable and further supports the idea that some of those who died at Kalkriese were senior Roman commanders, which further supports the idea that command elements were amongst those killed there. Until we find something with 'P. Quinctilius Varus was here' carved on it, we can't conclude that Varus was definitely amongst them.<br>
<i><br>
The apparent, complete disintrigration of thousands of bones seems a bit of a cop-out as well, especially since they are reasonalbly well presevered where they have found them. I am sure they have among their equipment Ground-penetrating radar, and if all of the bones "sadly disintrigrated", they could still locate the alledged burial pits by these means. This is especially so, since they already found a few pits, so they would know exactly what anomolies to look for in the print outs. If there are more burial pits there, teeth and the most resilient bone fragments would certainly still be there.<br>
</i><br>
And perhaps they are, and perhaps further excavations will find them. But you still seem to be assuming that Varus' force was substantially intact when it reached Kalkriese - I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Large numbers of the Roman force would have died, become separated from the command elements or have made a break for it (like Vala's unit) long before then, so the force that was finally pinned down at Kalkriese may well have been fairly small. Substantial numbers of this reduced force would have died in the final stages of the fighting, but we know that at least some survived and were captured. Some of these were later massacred, others sacrificed and others taken as slaves. Of those that were killed in the fighting, we know their bones were exposed to the elements and scavengers for some years before <b> some</b> of them were burined by Germanicus' men - and it's unlikely this was anything like all of them. Then at least <b> some</b> of those buried were dug up again by the Germanics after Germanicus withdrew, and <b> some</b> of them were reburied by a second Roman expedition years later still. Given the probable small size of the force at Kalkriese in the first place (not 20,000 men, that's for certain), the fact that not all of them were killed, the fact their remains lay exposed, were buried, were exposed again and then were reburied <i> and</i> the fact that substantial areas of the site were not condusive to the preservation of organic material, I'd actually be rather more surprised if we did find the remains of 'thousands' of dead Romans. The extent of the finds of human remains seems quite logical and in keeping with what we know about the site and the sequence of events before their deposit. It's actually much more surprising that we have the amount of human remains we've found at all.<br>
<i><br>
I could go on and on, but there is no point. As in religion, true "believers" will always have faith despite the evidence to the contrary, and "sceptics" will be damned for their alledged heresay. I'm a "believer" too though. I have great faith that even under the worst of cirumstances, and the (Teutoburger debacle had to be one of the worst), that the Roman army was still too professional to attack a fortified position blocking their escape and salvation, with their baggage train (and provincial governor's litter).<br>
</i><br>
Determining who attacked where and with what is quite beyond the evidence available to us. Taking that evidence into account, I'd say that the idea that a remnant force centred on Varus and his officers tried to take the route around the Kalkrieseberg to find their way back to the Lippe, was ambushed from a prepared position, cut off, pinned against the moorlands and destroyed is a reasonable one given the nature of the archaeological finds and the accounts we have of Varus' last stand. Whether this idea is actually absolutely true is something we're unlikely to ever know, of course, but I still find it more convincing than any of the alternative interpretations that I've seen so far.<br>
<br>
I'm also a 'sceptic' in the true sense of the word - someone who assesses the evidence and makes a provisional judgement based on their understanding of it. So feel free to present any arguments you like - I'd be very interested to hear them since I am not a 'true believer' or anything like one. And its discussions like this which test opposing ideas and so are fruitful to open-minded inquirers on both sides.<br>
Cheers Dan,<br>
<br>
<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
