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specifics in Spear fighting combat
#56
Quote:First, I think that evidence that most Greek hoplites did very much drill at all is an assumption and needs to be proven. Note I'm not saying it didn't happen--just that I feel it needs to be discussed. What's the evidence that young men were drilled? (Before the mid 4th c?). My impression, and it is only an impression, is that the only evidence goes the other way--Xenophon seems to think that ONLY the Spartans, the Thebans from 371 BC, and the mercenaries ever did drill.
We do know that the Athenians had two years of obligatory service from 18-20 years old. In the first year they learned how to act in their unit and move as much in accordance as possible. In the second year they mostly served as garisson in border castles and camps and this obviously put the theory into practice. Two such years were brobably not a bad training at all. In the ceremony of their aproval by the state as hoplites-the same one that the made their famous oath- they danced the "phyrric dance" where they supposedly performed all the movements they had learned. This applies also to the Spartans,where we know they gave much value to group dancing,in order to learn how to act all together in accordance.
I don't remember references for other city states,but we don't have any reason to suppose things were much different.

The Spartans of cource would perform the above movements much more orderly and in addition they appear to have been practicing some more extreem movements that are not expected even from very well trained men. Like the one Herodotus mentions in Thermopylae,which I still can't properly imagine. While fighting,they all together started retreating as if routing and then all at once turned to face the enemy again,and in this action they killed many of their enemies and few of them were lost. If we accept that the hoplites were useless against a massive oponent if they broke the phalanx,then you can imagine that the rest of greek hoplites shouldn't be blaimed for not operating this way!
Quote:if every man has a three foot gap to close (a file's minimum width)
This is actually too much,if you want the shield to overlap in close order. I'd say you must count about a bit more than 2 feet.
Quote:The danger of an opponent's better formed phalanx striking you while carrying out this maneuver would be so great that no general would dare employ it int he face of the enemy!
And indeed they avoided so,after all the early hoplite battles were most often somewhat arranged. However the hoplites in the late fifth century bc and afterwards were very used to unexpected attacks. One possible deployment may have been that not each column took its place in turn next to the other,but all at once or many at once moved,with the leader of each column knowing how many paces would have to count to turn to the right and take his position. This would make things much quicker.
Quote:we HAD to open our files (not our ranks) to allow for the natural movement of the solider within his file area. Fortunately for us in that time period, there's excellent evidence (Phillips, vis Matt Springer's superb "Zeal and Bayonets Only) that rapidity in movement required the troops to open their files
Likewise,the hoplites must have walked the distance between the armies in open order and with much space between each rank.They'd close files about 100 m from the enemy and then the most disciplined armies would not run in all that distance in order to maintain their formation. This is what Spartans must have done most of the times. They may have broken to a run in the last few meters to gain momentum. If the hoplites ran,they would form again their files after impact with the enemy,each hoplite adding his waight to the one in front. This may have happened either instantly or slowly in different places of the phalanx.
Quote:"The Phocians opposed them in every possible way, drawing in together and closing their ranks to the best of their power." Herodotus 9.18.1 The word used, puknôsantes, at it's root seems to mean "close in texture, dense, thick" according to my desktop Classical Greek lexicon. So the hard pressed Phokians were able to close their ranks in the face of the Thessalian cavalry.
This can be interpreted in two or three ways.
One is that they were in open order and closed to face the cavalry as quickly and orderly as they could. After all,they were not a proffesional army. Another interpretation is that in open order they allowed less space between columns,so when they formed close order,the shields were being very much overlaped,making it harder for the cavalry to penetrate. And yet another and very possible explanation is that thet formed close order as usual with the shields somewhat overlapping and wither from fear or pressure or both the men where coming one closer to the other to feel secured and protect themselves. None of these interpretations in unlikely nor heretical.
Yes we have to repeat it that we need to get very many aspis armed people together to experiment a bit.
As to the Olympias project,it was excellent,but as usually,it answered some questions and produced even greater ones!
Christian,if you're participating in such large groups and more so leading them,you can perhaps try some things that apply mosty in hoplite phalanxes?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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Messages In This Thread
Spear fighting technique - by Paullus Scipio - 02-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Re: Spear fighting technique - by Robert Vermaat - 02-27-2008, 12:52 PM
Spear Fighting - by Paullus Scipio - 02-28-2008, 01:17 AM
Spear fighting - by Paullus Scipio - 03-03-2008, 10:22 PM
Re: Spear Fighting - by Robert Vermaat - 03-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Spear fighting by Hoplites - by Paullus Scipio - 03-04-2008, 10:57 PM
Specifics of Spear Fighting - by Paullus Scipio - 05-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - by Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-20-2008, 06:01 PM
Spear Fighting/ Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-21-2008, 09:05 PM
Spear-fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-21-2008, 10:08 PM
Spear fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-22-2008, 07:42 AM
Spear-fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-22-2008, 02:35 PM
Spear-fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-23-2008, 01:31 AM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-23-2008, 09:08 PM
Sper Fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-23-2008, 10:56 PM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-24-2008, 12:29 AM
Spearfighting/ Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-24-2008, 01:32 AM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-24-2008, 03:45 AM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-24-2008, 08:59 PM
Spear-fighting/Hoplite Drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-26-2008, 11:45 PM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-27-2008, 01:55 AM
Spear Fighting/Hoplite drill - by Paullus Scipio - 05-27-2008, 03:54 AM
Spear-fighting - by Paullus Scipio - 06-05-2008, 01:37 AM

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