A Niedermörmter type Helmet with Newstead Segmental Armour

[FlaviusCrispus]

I believe some daggers have been found in a second-century context. One in the exhibit "Die Romer" at Munich, loaned from the HVG collection, is identified as such. I'll try to get the the exact citation later.

I personally think it's unlikely that daggers were in widespread use in the first century, then fell completely out of use in the second, then suddenly re-emerged in the third. I believe daggers continued in use at least by some classes of soldier throughout. But this is just a gut feeling and I haven't done any deep research to support it.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I find it totally mind boggling to think they would suddenly drop this piece of kit.... :?

[Fabius Liberalis]

Thanks for the additional input. I will try to give my perspective as a newcomer on the points raised.

Lucius:
I did know when I bought the cingulum that the plates were based on 1st C English finds. But I had the chance to buy it cheaply and thought these robust parts could have been passed down and lasted to mid 2nd C.
However from a more practical point of wearing this belt today these thick cast plates do make it very heavy. Here is a photo of an attractive enamelled belt plate from the Newstead finds which would certainly be my ideal choice.
In addition I had to replace the damaged apron leather on my cingulum and took the opportunity to shorten it as I understand there was a reduction in apron length in the 2nd C




Crispvs:
Thanks for your insight into using the Guttman with a Newstead and the narrow time frame you think they could have been in used in combination. That was one of my main concerns to keep it 2nd C at least.
I was surprised to hear that there is a scarcity of evidence for pugio use mid 2nd C. Initially I did look through my copy of A Roman Frontier Post and its People regarding the Newstead finds and found this photo showing what I thought was a pugio blade. In the book its catalogued by Curle as a dagger or a knife.


At the time I did not consider non pugio use with armour to be an issue in a 2nd C context. However now I see from your link that there is a possibility that this Newstead blade is a knife rather than a pugio. The tang is certainly long although there appears to be a slight narrowing of the blade after the hilt. Has this blade now definitely been determined as being a knife? From the practical point of view of wearing this Newstead kit today I can see not having to wear a pugio would again be a weight saving.

Flavius:
From my limited knowledge I too have difficulty in assimilating the concept of not wearing a pugio with armour in the 2nd C. I certainly would like to hear more evidence of 2nd C pugio use if you think you know where to find it.

[Gaius]

Also from my limited knowledge, i also think that the supposedly desaparition of pugiones during the second century is some kind of archaeological "gap" issue, because what emerges in the third century is not a different form of dagger, but a bigger version of the old pugio that retains its ancient morphology. What you can see here is a case of evolution, but a light form of evolution, is just the same dagger but slightly bigger. Considering that the end of II AC is a time of changes in the close contact weapons carried by the legionaries (classical gladius out of use and adoption of larger swords and ring-pommel types), it is hard to believe that the pugio that reappears in the IIIrd century AC after a hundred years of having been put out of use (supposedly) is just the same weapon that it was in use since republican times, only a little bigger and sporting "retro" scabbards...

[Crispvs]

The evidence I know of for the use of pugiones in the second century is limited to two examples, namely a fragmentary dagger from Buciumi and a grip plate from Barr Hill. The Barr Hill plate is of the same form as the handles of the third century daggers.

I had not seen the photo you posted up before but to my eyes it looks more like the tang and shoulders of a sword blade, the rest of which has been lost.

Magius,

Just for the record, your belt plates are NOT Republican. They are type 'A' plates (Grew and Griffeths' classification) and date to the second and third quarters of the first century AD. They are contemporary with type 'B' plates.

Crispvs

[D B Campbell]

Initially I did look through my copy of A Roman Frontier Post and its People regarding the Newstead finds and found this photo showing what I thought was a pugio blade.

Lucky devil! Where on earth did you acquire this treasure?! hock:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I had not seen the photo you posted up before but to my eyes it looks more like the tang and shoulders of a sword blade, the rest of which has been lost.

I was thinking the same thing!

Magius,

Just for the record, your belt plates are NOT Republican. They are type 'A' plates (Grew and Griffeths' classification) and date to the second and third quarters of the first century AD. They are contemporary with type 'B' plates.

Crispvs

Well you had better tell that to Jorge at Armillum, as that is where I got them! 8) Still, will do me! Thanks for pointing that out mate! 8)

That just gives me a good reason to do a new belt or 2 for a republican impression!! D OH- boyoboyoboy!!

ps, hows your seg coming dude? And your gladius? And that pugio? Cant wait to see these when you finish them!

[Fabius Liberalis]

Crispvs

Thank you for providing this evidence of pugiones use at the Bar Hill fort in the mid 2nd C. I had completely forgotten to check the archaeological record of the Bar Hill finds. I am pleased you provided this reference particularly as it argues against your original point of view. Although I have to concede there is definateley a scarcity of pugiones finds in the archaeological record in the 2nd C period.

I have the original 1906 archaeological report of the Bar Hill excavations in my library and sure enough here is the photo of the pugio grip you describe taken shortly after it was recovered from the well in the Praetorium courtyard of the fort.

[Fabius Liberalis]

Initially I did look through my copy of A Roman Frontier Post and its People regarding the Newstead finds and found this photo showing what I thought was a pugio blade.

Lucky devil! Where on earth did you acquire this treasure?! hock:

In an Edinburgh bookshop a couple of years ago. It was expensive but a bit below the current online book dealer price.

[griffin]

The whole book of A Roman Frontier Post and its People is available online:

http://www.curlesnewstead.org.uk/index.htm

[Martin Moser]

Hi Fabius,

thanks for sharing your progress on your 2nd century project. I'm looking for to read/see more of it!

What would not be appropriate with this kit however, is a pugio. There is VERY little evidence for their use in a military context during the second century AD. Pugiones do seem to make a re-appearance in the early third century AD but in a much larger form with a simpler type of sheath, as with the examples from Kunzing and Copthall Court.

FWIW, I accidentally just read:

Ubl, Hannsjörg. Wann verschwand der Dolch vom römischen Militärgürtel? (when did the dagger disappear from the Roman military belt?), in Carnap-Bornheim, C. von (ed.): Beiträge zu römischer und barbarischer Bewaffnung in den ersten vier nachchristlichen Jahrhunderten. Akten des 2. Internationalen Kolloquiums in Marburg a. d. Lahn, 20. bis 24. Februar 1994, Lublin/ Marburg, 137-44

and he thinks just the opposite, i.e. that the pugio continued to be in use until the beginning of the 3rd century. Many archeaologists/historians now seem to think that by the time when Kuenzing was actually destroyed, the daggers had already been out of use and collected and saved for reuse for quite a while.

[Tarbicus]

Many archeaologists/historians now seem to think that by the time when Kuenzing was actually destroyed, the daggers had already been out of use and collected and saved for reuse for quite a while.

The same principal of the Montefortino found at Cremona?

[Fabius Liberalis]

Hi Martin

Vielen dank furs weitere informationen an Römerdolch nutzung im zweiten jahrhunderts - Es freut mich sehr daß zu hören!!

Thanks also for your interest in my project. On monday 27th August 2007 I was at Corbridge to meet the armourer who brought 2 laminated blades he had forged for me to evaluate and choose which one will eventually be used in my Gladius based on the find at Newstead. In this photo you see RAT member Gaius Julius Caesar (aka Magivs) checking out these 2 blades.



MfG aus Caledonia im hohen nordens des Römisches Imperium

[Martin Moser]

Hi Fabius,

man of many talents - danke fuer die Antwort in Deutsch!

Are there any other details you have decided on already for your 2nd century stuff? Belt? Shoes?

Btw, who is lifting Gaius's skirt there in the picture? :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thats what I've been trying to find out!!!! :evil: :lol: