Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad"

[jvrjenivs]

Here is a proposed drill for when the enemy appears at close quarters. The first two (or four) ranks plant there pila upright in the ground and draw the gladius while taking two steps forward. The remaining troops immediately throw pila , then step forward and throw the first two A(or four) ranks pila. Commands anyone? Anyone want to try it out at drill to see if it would work out? This prevents the century's front ranks from being hit as they attempt to throw pila and still have one pilum in their scutum hand.

Why would they plant their pila, and not throw them? I don't think the enemy would just appear 10 feet in front of them...

And you would increase the probability that you hurt yourself by your own pila (when it's behind you, you don't see it (fall) )

[Julius Verax]

Hi , Iam gonna tell you the version I was told at the museum ( Arbeia fort ) where I work . Now I am still not convinced this is how it was done but here it is .

A roman Legion is formed up in 2 equal ranks . The first rank throws its first Pilum , the second rank throws its first pilum , first rank throws its last pilum , second rank throws its last pilum . The the Legion draws the Gladius and advances to contact , all the while the Legion is under constant fire support from Balista , Scopio's and Archers . At this point the Cavalry advance from the wings of the Legion and in circle the enemy Infantry forcing them forwards onto the advancing Legion .

Now as I said I dont know if this is the way it was done for real but it is the version I was told .

Julius .

[PhilusEstilius]

Julius. I don't know who told you that but I think I would send him back to military school to learn a few things.

[jkaler48]

The problem with different tactical postulations is that it is difficult for most reenactment groups to test the more advanced movements
due to lack of training time and the required number of troops to approximate the original conditions. When actual battle tactics are to tested
even fewer opportunities are available because non lethal weapons (needlefelt) and opposing troops and a realistic combat simulation system are required. Even then old fat untrained reenactors and the lack of real fear of injury and death may invalidate most of the results.
All that said actually doing something gives much better insight into something that just speculating about it. So has anyone ever
tested pila resupply or redistribution or is anyone interested enough to give it a try and report back here?

[M. Demetrius]

Well, although it's an illustration, and not a Battle Tactic Manual written by a Roman general, this illustration gives a pretty clear idea of how things might have been done. I've not been in a crowd of enough Romans to test things out like you describe, John, so I can't really speak to that. But this is very sensible and believable:

(Of course, it says nothing to the question of resupply)

[Alexandr K]

Hi,

Regarding the pila volley, look also at this site (and the other ones are also very interesting).

Greetings
Alexandr

[Julius Verax]

Philus , I did say that I wasnt convinced just something I was told . I do think however that their must have been a limit to the Infantry's misile capability , I always thought and Iam probably wrong , that the Legionary 's unequalled fighting ability was in the use of the Gladius , as shock troops , I just assumed that their would be a limited but deadly barrage of Pila from the Legion then Legion advanced to contact with the Gladius . As I said Iam probably wrong .


Julius .

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It is quite a good book.

Like you say John, getting the numbers together to test out these theory is the stumbling block.

Know 5000 spare dudes interested?

[PhilusEstilius]

I consider that the Roman army operated on the Manipular situation and indeed we find this in many of there forts, this is where the accommodation blocks show this in their every day life for two centuries are shown with their barracks together on there frontage.
The same of course comes about on the battle field where they fight together shoulder to shoulder, this is done by having 80 men in a line 160 yds long with each man 2yds apart.
Then the other century is lined up behind them exactly the same way but in a staggered situation, this is where it is possible to get 160 men to thro' their pilum all at the exact second without even a verble or otherwise order.
This would be done by each man watching the Centurian Prior at the right end of the line who would wait until he could see the whites of the enemies eyes as THEY charge toward the Roman lines, then when he throws they all throw and this is the shock system of a Pilum throw.
Then the idea of the Romans charging forward is not the way it was done for there is the old saying that "You stand Your ground or you will be buried in it" The rear line step forward after picking up their sheilds and drawing their swords which presents a wall of wood at the enemy with nasty things jabbing out.
In a small skirmish maybe the Romans would charge forward however in a large set piece battle the site for that battle had been previously chosen for it's advantage. ie the high ground to make the enemy expend his energy in getting to you.
Then there is the whole idea of the Scutum having it's top and bottom chopped off to allow it to be stood on the ground so as to assist in balance while the Pilum is thrown, the only areas that move forward are the wings to form only a horseshoe around the enemy and when he finds he is getting the worst of the battle he will run thro' the gap this is where the Cavalry go around as wings and cut them down on the run.

[A_Volpe]

There is the "countermarch" that the Romans used to consider as well

it sounds similar to the tactics suggested - whereas the front rank (or front 2, whichever) throw pila and retreat behind the line(s) behind them, who in turn step up front and launch pila, repeat... You could do this until all pila are thrown (if we're going with 2 pila per Roman, in a Century deployed, that's 160 pila - that's a lot of nasty if you ask me) - tack on the support missiles as Demetrius mentioned - Arrows, spears, small javelins, rocks, goats, insults, stale hardtack - as well as siege weapons / Scorpio and Ballista bolts (let's throw that in for good measure) - that is a horrifying amount of stuff being hurled at the enemy, and that could certainly take a long time to do.

Anyway, I agree that the Romans must have had a huge variety in combinations and formations/tactics for using (pila) and making use of that Countermarch. in the 1500's/1600's we see that influence come into play with Pike and Shot - the (Musketeers) are said to excecute this countermarch based on the Romans, what must have looked and felt like continuous fire for a few minutes, must have been quite an experience.

anyway, we in Legion III Cyr hold our "drill encampment" in eastern Massachusetts in the Spring and Fall as best we can, and last year we tried some experiements in this 'countermarch' both with pila, and with gladii - as well as trying theories/thoughts about refreshing the ranks. Very interesting stuff But unfortunately we don't have any video or photos. People are welcome to videotape while we play!

[Matthew Amt]

The same of course comes about on the battle field where they fight together shoulder to shoulder, this is done by having 80 men in a line 160 yds long with each man 2yds apart.
Then the other century is lined up behind them exactly the same way but in a staggered situation, this is where it is possible to get 160 men to thro' their pilum all at the exact second without even a verble or otherwise order.

The whole century in a single rank?? Even with another behind, that's not enough depth for an ancient army, particularly once the "rear" century comes forward as you say. You're going to get overrun.

Then the idea of the Romans charging forward is not the way it was done for there is the old saying that "You stand Your ground or you will be buried in it"

Is that a Roman saying? Because there are dozens of accounts of Roman battles in which the Romans charge to victory. The whole concept of ancient warfare was pushing the enemy back off the battlefield. They didn't stand firm on their practice grounds each morning and wait for those wooden posts to attack them!

Then there is the whole idea of the Scutum having it's top and bottom chopped off to allow it to be stood on the ground so as to assist in balance while the Pilum is thrown

But lots of us throw pila all the time with our scuta in our left hands, sometimes a second pilum in that hand as well, and there's never a problem! And we're not trained. The scutum was shortened simply to make it easier to carry on the march, I'd say. Sling it on your back, and it doesn't interfere with your pack pole or bump your legs. Set it down in a battle, and you run the risk of an enemy missile plugging you. Not to mention the shield is just going to fall over anyway! I see it happen all the time, on nicely flat mown lawns, even with javelins or palisade stakes propping them up. One breath of spring breeze, and all the shields fall over. And of course you can't be advancing (or retreating!) with your shield sitting on the ground beside you. Keep it in your hand.

Vale,

Matthew

[jho]

If you can read German you may want to consider

Christian Geyer, Pila in hostes immittunt Anmerkungen zu einer römischen Elementartaktik, JRMES 9, 53-64

It is written by a German latin teacher who drilled his school class in Roman battle tactics (not standard practice in German schools!). I would have to re-read it but I believe they used a system where each rank would individually advance a few steps, throw their pila and then draw swords and step aside to allow the next man to pass and throw and step in in front of the man having thrown immediately before them. Apparently after just a few days of training they were able to do this quickly enough to have 8 ranks throw their pila and close ranks before the enemy would have reached their line.

But I am quoting this from the top of my head so please check the original article and correct me if my recollection is wrong!

[Paullus Scipio]

Jens wrote:

I would have to re-read it but I believe they used a system where each rank would individually advance a few steps, throw their pila and then draw swords and step aside to allow the next man to pass and throw and step in in front of the man having thrown immediately before them. Apparently after just a few days of training they were able to do this quickly enough to have 8 ranks throw their pila and close ranks before the enemy would have reached their line.

One major difference between Greek and Roman drill was that Greek drill was based on files, but Roman ( and most modern militaries) drill is based on ranks. When Romans were given the order "open order, march" or latin equivalent, the open order was formed from close order by every odd man in a rank moving forward/back, thus the men were not behind each other, but staggered, so there is no need for the 'side step' you describe. Both Greek and Roman armies moved/manouevred in open order, only 'closing up' just before contact with the enemy. A Roman century thus may have looked something like this before the order to charge and throw by successive ranks :-
Open order:
o* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * ....and so on, thus each man is on a frontage of 6 ft, 1.8 metres with plenty of room to throw, the second rank then throws and closes into the gaps with the first forming a single rank thus, with no need for a side-step!

Close order:

**************** ...with each man ready to fight with sword and shield and occupying 3 ft (0.9 metre) in close order.

In open order, the 80 man century would have stood in 8 ranks deep in open order, X 10 men frontage, occupying a frontage of 20 yards(9 metres). After all ranks had thrown, they would be 4 ranks deepX 20 men frontage in close order, still on a frontage of 20 yards(9 metres).

See diagram on page 112 "Warfare in the Classical World" J. Warry 1980 where I first illustrated this.........

[PhilusEstilius]

Julius. I think that my first response was maybe a bit blunt but then it was what you mention some body said how the cavalry were used. Ala of course is wing and this is where they were usualy held until ordered to do other things, the best use of cavalry is to take on an enemy who has decided to leave the field and cut them down in the rout. Infact as I mentioned in my other post about leaving your enemy room to run if he want's, and then do like Storming Norman did in 91.
Then of course to give a true answer to the actual question asked in the topic no I don't think there would be any extra Pila being distributed in the heat of battle.

[Alexandr K]

Hi,

Christian Geyer, Pila in hostes immittunt Anmerkungen zu einer römischen Elementartaktik, JRMES 9, 53-64

It is written by a German latin teacher who drilled his school class in Roman battle tactics (not standard practice in German schools!). I would have to re-read it but I believe they used a system where each rank would individually advance a few steps, throw their pila and then draw swords and step aside to allow the next man to pass and throw and step in in front of the man having thrown immediately before them. Apparently after just a few days of training they were able to do this quickly enough to have 8 ranks throw their pila and close ranks before the enemy would have reached their line.

I've read the article a few years ago. IIRC the theory is so that the century would stand in an open order, the last legionary in a file would step into the passageway between two files, run, throw his pilum and then place himself on the first place in the file. Then comes second legionary (the one who is now last in the file), then the others. After all legionaries in the century would dispatch their pila this way, the century would close its ranks and form a tight formation for close order fight. I also remember that the article didn't impress me at all. I don't think the system described in it would be feasible on a real battlefield with men in full armour, with large shields and in bigger quantity than a few dozens and with an enemy in front of the formation.

Greetings
Alexandr