How to portray a Spartan king from the classical era?

[Phalanx300]

The ram was ascociated with apollo but northen Greeks and skythians asociated it with the gods of war.

In the geometric/archaic period when the tribal links were stronger the shield rims identifies the 3 Doric clans.
The triangles identified the Acheans. The triangles appear on all the hearths of the Achaic bronze Age palaces.
Same aplies for the circles (spherae)
The menanders, squears(kibotia), the flame and letuce(thrinax) appear from the Archaic to Classical period
Sources: G Kaibel INSCRIPTIONES GRECAE Berlin 1890, Schimmelpfeng DE BRASIDAE SPARTANI REBUS GESTIS ATQUE INGENIO Marburg 1857, Bockh-Frantz CORPUS INSCRIPTIONUM GRAECARUM Berlin 1828

The Spartan Marines were most likely recruited from the morae of Elos and Pylos (Bull and Leopard respectivelly)
http://www.spartasmores.gr/index.files/Page830.htm

Kind regards

First thanks for your reply!

The ram, seems logical then that we see Spartans with it since Apollo was greatly honoured in Sparta.

And on the outer rim symbols, I was more wondering if an Spartan soldier would wear a certain kind of outer rim based on his position, for instance if an Spartan would be a Marine he would for example wear the wave symbols on his outer rim? Or is this not the case?

[hoplite14gr]

Excuse my bad English syntax.
I meant in my pervious post the the rims at least for Spartans indicated clan/tribla origines in the begining.
This trend seems to have stopped after the Persian wars.

Only Megara, Coritnh, ´Athens and Taras seem to have a special emblem for their marines.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Oh I see thanks for they reply, the outer rims pictured are thus symbols showing a certain tribe someone belonged to.

I'm still wondering though, if the triangles belonged to the Acheans then why do we see the Aigeidai clan emblem with the triangles? Those who wore it had family ties to the Agiad line right?

Edit: Also slightly offtopic, you were a part of the Spartiatikes Mores group right? I was wondering which soldier you were or are you a supporting Historian?

I've also noticed that the one wearing the Aigeidai clan emblem doesn't seem to have the horns on the snake as shown in this picture:

[hoplite14gr]

The horns here are this hoplite's personal touch-but the basic emblems remain.

The Aigidae had come from Beotea following the Doreans. They had family affiliations with both royal families.

The Aigidae, Talthybiadae (Sparta), Nelidae (Pylos), Eyrikledae (Geronthrae) had proofs of perperty ownership from the Bronze Age and were most likely of Achean origin. Spartans let Herodotos and Xenophon strees their Doric ancestry in the history told to others but ther Early Doreans of 1000 B.C. seems to have come to terms many times with the Acheans to gain their ends.

Yes Spartiatikes Mores is a group and I am both re-enactor and historical researcher.
I have depicted several impressions.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks again!

So Spartans were allowed to modify their shield emblem as long as the basic emblem remained, interesting, I gues this also explains the twin snakes one of your members is using and the twin rooster in an Thermopylae representation?

Twin (Mora) emblems on one shield also ment familly affiliations (blood relationships right?) with both royal families right?

For the record, the Aigeidai clan isn't the same as the royal Agiad line is it? They happen to look very similar in name.

I gues this could mean each clan had its own emblem? As we now only know the Aigeidai snake and the Talthybiadae olive wreath?

Interesting about the clans, I gues this would mean that most if not all of the clan members would wear the triangle design on the outer rim to indicate their Achean descent.

[hoplite14gr]

So Spartans were allowed to modify their shield emblem as long as the basic emblem remained, interesting, I gues this also explains the twin snakes one of your members is using and the twin rooster in an Thermopylae representation?

Not only Spartans-all hoplites. "Twin emblem" shows afililation with bost royal houses OR invocation of Castor and Polydeykes patron of the spartan Army
Exception-the twins snakes are the Melampontidae clan as my frienf G. Iliopoulos found out. They represent the two snkes that tought profecy to Melampos who originated the clan of seers, soothsayers and healers.

Twin (Mora) emblems on one shield also ment familly affiliations (blood relationships right?) with both royal families right?
For the record, the Aigeidai clan isn't the same as the royal Agiad line is it? They happen to look very similar in name.
I gues this could mean each clan had its own emblem? As we now only know the Aigeidai snake and the Talthybiadae olive wreath?

Aegidae originate from the Beotian Aegeas. Agiadae from the first prince Agis.
The clans were prominent in all city states till the middle Peloponessian war. After that their emblems became very rare in iconography

Interesting about the clans, I gues this would mean that most if not all of the clan members would wear the triangle design on the outer rim to indicate their Achean descent.

Most likely. After all Stabo say that the Achean Philonomos brought the Doreans to Peloponissos

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the reply!

Not only Spartans-all hoplites. "Twin emblem" shows afililation with bost royal houses OR invocation of Castor and Polydeykes patron of the spartan Army
Exception-the twins snakes are the Melampontidae clan as my frienf G. Iliopoulos found out. They represent the two snkes that tought profecy to Melampos who originated the clan of seers, soothsayers and healers.

Ok, I thought that the shields were standard issue. Would this mean having simply a black rooster on your bronze shield(without any kind of background) would be acceptable? Or the simple Gorgeion of loose lines we see portrayed alot?

I see, another Spartan clan, would they actually have to fight, seeing as they were Spartans but also seers,soothsayers and healers?

I've read that having red as an background on your shield(for the clan shields at least) ment that you married into a clan and black ment it getting passed on from your father and it going all the way to the original clan starter, is any of this true?

[hoplite14gr]

Yes, based on writings there is reason tobelive that those married into the clan had variations of the clan emblem.
The some the heralds were trumpeteers. They were among the ranks and they might be fighting.
Herald and priest were hereditary posts.

The "personal emblem" issue seems it was the variation of the unit/clan emblem.
In Loyvre there is a hoplite with the rooster and a shamrock on his shield.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks again!

So trumpeteers and fluteplayers would have been specialised Spartans? I always thought they would have been helots.

Everything is clear now, however I'm wondering of the Thespians, I've read somewhere that the Thespians as black coloured soldiers isn't accurate, is this really true? (Following picture not being accurate?):

[hoplite14gr]

Black colour was avilable to Greeks.
But there is NOT a threat of evidence og Black coloured units :!:

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

I see, bit weird how Thespian Hoplites are always portrayed with black clothing?

Also I've read that some Spartans would have worn an inscripted horned horse symbol on their cheeck parts to honour the Hippeis, is this true? If so it would be a better symbol for me to wear on an future Corinthian Helmet then the inscripted ram in honour of Apollo.

Edit:

Also, are the any known clues on the shield emblems of the Thespians?

I'm mostly interested in the Spartans, Thespians, Tegeans and Argives for their battle spirit. I know the Spartan emblems and Argive emblems, judging from Spartan World the symbol from Archaic Tegea was the red boar which would make a likely emblem. How the Thespians looked seems to be a big mystery (probably is).

[hoplite14gr]

G. Iliopoulos and I have dechiphered the Argive emblems.
Thes[pians were like other contemporary hoplites, simple as that.
I did a small reserach for late Paul Allen about the Thespians (they had 2 emblems) but the Beotiam emblems are still under research.

The boar of Tegea was differend from the Spartan Boar of Stenyclaros and probably with different colors.


Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks!

And I gues these are the emblems you and Iliopoulos found, this site also has the emblems of 3 Athenian clans:

http://www.xyfos.com/athenea/argos.php

I put it through an transelator and it was very interesting to read, theirs was truelly a great army as well.

The Thespians had two emblems? Would you mind sharing them or is it all still under research?

And to my other question, would you happen to know whether trumpeteers, flute players and drummers(if they were existing at the time) would be Helots or would be Spartans? Seeing as the seers and healers were actually Spartans as well.

[hoplite14gr]

http://www.xyfos.com/athenea/argos.php
These are the Argive emblems.

Thespians had three enblems (under research).

The military trympeteers were from the Talthybiadae so they were Spartans.
Other muscisians under research.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks alot!

Interesting, it could very well mean that the other musicians were Spartans if thats the case, though it they did have a special shield emblem would mean that they could fight.

Also I have another question, I've read that the horned horse stood for the Hippeis and was worn to honnour them? Would you happen to know anything about it?