Lanyards on Gladii?

[Magnus]

If I may....first to respond to the issue of swords going flying. They are/were of deepeeka make...maybe that has something to do with the fit of the blade in the scabbard.

Second, if I may comment in regards to Hibernicus saying the thong may have been used for a specific kind of fighting. Gladiatores (someone can enlighten me here) were primarily using one weapon right? If that's the case, it makes sense that a lanyard could have been used, since there was no requirement to change weapons.

I'd still maintain that a large loop like that would take fine motor skills to place around your wrist and in the heat of battle, I don't think one would have the time to do so. UNLESS the time was there to do so...but who can say?

Regardless, I don't think because some of the components have loops we can say for sure they were for this or that.

[M. Demetrius]

Wouldn't it be helpful to find a mosaic or a fresco with wrist loops being used on the hands of a cohort of men? Until then --

[Tarbicus]

Taking another look at the photo Matt posted, I now suspect the strap across the back of the hand is to secure the bottom of the armguard to keep it oriented correctly (manica wearers, take note and have a think),

Well not to derail Barry's thread, but I did try that initially with my first manica back in December of '07 as it is a completely obvious place for securing the piece, but I really didn't like how it interfered with a good grip on a sword. I guess one could get used to it though- clearly the gladiator in the relief has no trouble with that binding of his. But the 'mysterious' extra rivet hole in just one of the fragments from Newstead begged the use of a strap someplace, and the wrist works wonderfully- secures the manica to the arm (all kinds of buckles are quite unnecessary), and it doesn't interfere with one's grip.

It also reminds me of some re-enactor's methods of securing the manica, by having a complete arm sock with the manica attached to that, where the end is a fingerless mitten for the hand.

Jon Coulston has written an article comparing gladiators to legionaries, and there is certainly a lot of correlation in equipment. IIRC, he at least suspects gladiators were a more than insignificant influence on legionary equipment.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

edit: I don't think it's wrapped around his hand, now. It looks like part of the arm guard to secure that.

Actually, yes, I realized that yesterday when I had another look at the image in the book rather than the scan I had; in fact, it might even be that the obviously twisted cord on the sword might be running up the guy's forearm and that bit tied around his elbow might be it too. It's hard to tell. The forearm binding seems to be what's around the front of his hand- I agree there Jim- and it might be what's around the elbow- but it does look like it might have some twisting to it, which the binding doesn't. That's why I don't so much think what's running the length of his forearm is part of the binding- it's twisted and doesn't really fit.

Just my 2 cents, and maybe someone has said this already and I have missed it, but to me
it looks to be hanging around the wrist, crossing around the back of the hand to the palm, then crossing the fingers on the inside and the 2 ends can be seen suspending the sword!

[The_Mariner]

Perhaps the lanyard was not so much a wristloop as a thong. Wound around the wrist it would prevent the gladius dropping free, but a few quick flicks would release the thong presto. But this is speculation all, also strange there are two rings.

In my simulated combat experience this has been the key also
the weapon is not "tied" to the wrist but rather a line or loop coming
from the weapon is looped or spun around the wrist to prevent its
slipping out and being dropped, but if need be it can be quickly
dropped in about 2-3 seconds by a few flicks of the wrist.

Even when fighting with different weapons the change over is
quick , the weapon put into use and then in a brief moment when
you have time the wrist is flicked and this can cause the thong to
spin on your wrist. Later you usually are dropping the weapon because it is
of no more value to you (through breakage\\bending\\or combat distance)
so it would be valid to have a thong there but it would most
definitely not be something that should be permanently fixed to the
fighters body by any means.

As a side note has anyone thought that they might have been placed
there to secure the weapons in secure areas to prevent their being pulled
out on the owner in a crowd situation or lost while doing some other type
of work or riding? Or to prevent disputes from becoming dangerous
too quickly in the camps or barracks areas?

Love the discussion though, many great points! A very good question!

[Magnus]

Interesting idea (your last paragraph). Similar to retention systems in modern police hand gun holsters...

[Tarbicus]

Why not both? Wrist securement in combat, and also for securement off the battlefield. Two for the price of one.

[Matt Lukes]

Indeed that's a interesting possibility- although securing a weapon would also restrict its owner from drawing it, so might pose a bit of a problem. I could see wanting a dagger secured, since that's an easy grab, but a sword is a whole lot harder for someone other than its carrier to take from its scabbard without being stopped. And a place where someone might try it seems likely to be a place where one might actually want to have direct access to the weapon...

[sulla felix]

I came across this picture of one of these interesting pommel end pieces in situ on a blade from Singidunum ofthe Mainz type dated 1st century BC to first century AD. The rings are substantial. The sword and scabbard are in excellent condition and there is an owner's inscription which gives the name and unit served in (Legio III Scythica).



I also found this relief



I am more convinced than ever that some Mainz type swords of the later 1st Century BC and early 1st Century AD had some kind of wrist loop.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ta-Dahhh! Good find Baz! I knew I had seen that image before! (the one of the pommel with rings)

[Magnus]

Why would they have four loops? Almost looks like they are there to make jingle noises...though that thingy on the pommel does look like some kind of thong.

[sulla felix]

Why would they have four loops? Almost looks like they are there to make jingle noises...though that thingy on the pommel does look like some kind of thong.

Why have four loops on a pugio sheath but seeming only use two of them? Why have four loops on a sword sheath, and seemingly not use all of them? Some things we may never get an answer for! I have a hard time believing that these are the equivalent of a rattle??? Would those rings really make a lot of noise?

I do wonder why people have such a hard time with the concept of a wrist loop or some form of lanyard. Is there something I am missing?

[Tarbicus]

Why would they have four loops? Almost looks like they are there to make jingle noises...though that thingy on the pommel does look like some kind of thong.

Why have four loops on a pugio sheath but seeming only use two of them? Why have four loops on a sword sheath, and seemingly not use all of them? Some things we may never get an answer for! I have a hard time believing that these are the equivalent of a rattle??? Would those rings really make a lot of noise?

Without a completely intact belt with frogs, a pugio sheath, and the thongs/loops/harness/ to show us clearly, it's all guesswork... I guess.

I do wonder why people have such a hard time with the concept of a wrist loop or some form of lanyard. Is there something I am missing?

I think it's spot on.

[sulla felix]

Ta-Dahhh! Good find Baz! I knew I had seen that image before! (the one of the pommel with rings)

It is from the new D'amato/Sumner book - full of excellent photographs of rarely seen goodies.

[sulla felix]

Why would they have four loops? Almost looks like they are there to make jingle noises...though that thingy on the pommel does look like some kind of thong.

Why have four loops on a pugio sheath but seeming only use two of them? Why have four loops on a sword sheath, and seemingly not use all of them? Some things we may never get an answer for! I have a hard time believing that these are the equivalent of a rattle??? Would those rings really make a lot of noise?

Without a completely intact belt with frogs, a pugio sheath, and the thongs/loops/harness/ to show us clearly, it's all guesswork... I guess.

I do wonder why people have such a hard time with the concept of a wrist loop or some form of lanyard. Is there something I am missing?

I think it's spot on.

Well I am hoping to be able to experiment with the wrist loop theory when my new gladius is complete - it will be fitted with one of these pommel pieces Of course it will all be guesswork as you say Jim, but at least the pommel piece will be accurate!