A Niedermörmter type Helmet with Newstead Segmental Armour

[Fabius Liberalis]

Hi
I am currently putting together a mid 2nd century impression based on a Newstead Lorica and I have recently bought Deepeeka's new mouse and loaf helmet.
I would appreciate the current thinking from other RAT members on whether its appropriate to use this type of helmet with Newstead segmental armour. After discussions at the Corbridge Roman Festival event I attended on Bank holiday Monday there was some talk that this type of helmet would have been more appropriately used with Hamata armour. The wider and deeper neck guard of this type of helmet certainly covers to a greater extent the already well protected shoulder area of the segmental armour. To highlight this in my case I attach photo of the helmet used in conjunction with my Newstead.

I am quite happy with the helmet as a display item and can use my Italic G as an alternative in my impression.

Thanks

[Tarbicus]

After discussions at the Corbridge Roman Festival event I attended on Bank holiday Monday there was some talk that this type of helmet would have been more appropriately used with Hamata armour. The wider and deeper neck guard of the Niedermörmter certainly covers to a greater extent the already well protected shoulder area of the segmental armour.

I don't see why the added benefit of even more protection to the shoulders and back would be undesirable? Doesn't seem the best argument for hamata to me :?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was thinking along your line originally, but after recieving mine tonight, it seems so obvious that it would have been highly redundant to have it over a newstead seg. But then, it looks good with one too! :? roll:

I am thinking of trying a hamata with the Brass one, so why not with the rat and cheese one? :lol:

I would presume that was you I had a chat with on Monday?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Like Jim says, the combo would not be undesireable. Hell, it would stop an RPG 8!! hock:

[FlaviusCrispus]

I am currently putting together a mid 2nd century impression based on a Newstead Lorica and I have recently bought Deepeeka's new mouse and loaf Niedermörmter.
I would appreciate the current thinking from other RAT members on whether its appropriate to use this type of helmet with Newstead segmental armour.

The Romans were all about redundancy when it came to armor-- the more layers, the better!

I see no reason why the Guttmann-type Italic H ("mouse and loaf") could not have been worn with a Newstead seg. It's much shorter in the occipital region than the brass Neidermormter specimen. In the later case, the deep occipit might cause the large neck guard to come into contact with the back plate and shoulder guards, which would be annoying at he least and prevent you from raising your head to look up at worst (our comilito Theodosius encountered this problem with his older Deepeeka Italic H when worn with his Newstead, but this also had a deeper occipit than does the current model). The actual Guttmann helmet is somewhat shallower than even the newer Deepeeka version. You can see here...

http://www.legionsix.org/julianhelmetright.jpg

...that there's a fair amount of clearance between Celer's shoulders and the neck guard. The Deepeeka model, seen at the bottom of this page...

http://www.imperiumancientarmory.com/Italichelms.htm

...is deeper than the original and only a little shallower than the brass model. But if you can wear it with the Newstead without any discomfort or "clashing" of neck guard against armor, I say go for it!

[Fabius Liberalis]

Gaius

Yes that was me that spoke to you at the Corbridge event. I was suprised how many RAT members were there. I had a great day out.

Glad to hear you have your helmet. Does it fit you this time ??

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Seems great! And I can tilt my head back with little problem, so hopfully, I can wear it with my Corbridge 'C' too, and do a later impression..... 8)

It just seems like with the neck/back/shoulder protection this helmet affords, you could run around naked in it and no one could touch you from above!! :lol: :lol:

Not that I plan on trying that theory out any time soon! hock:

[Fabius Liberalis]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Its what I wanted to hear that using the helmet would not be inappropriate with a Newstead.

To complete my impression I have now only 6 weeks to wait for the armourer to complete my Pugio and laminated blade Gladii based on the surviving Newstead find.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

Very nice equipment. I think that combination fits perfectly.

In the other hand, i think you have to buy a new cingulum, because the one you shows is earlier than middle II century, :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But one can wear older things to go with newer things? I wear a republican type plated belt with terminals/aprons

[Crispvs]

Fabius,

Like the others I see no reason why the Guttmann mouse and loaf helmet (the Niedermoemter is the brass one) should not be worn with a Newstead segmentata. Be careful of the time period though. If you are wanting to portray a mid-second century soldier the Italic 'H' (the mouse and loaf and Niedermoemter helmets) helmets are rather too late, as they probably date to the late second or early third century. If you are part of a group (I am not sure if I met you at Corbridge or not) this is a serious consideration. If you are not part of a group, then there would be no problem - just say you are portraying a late second century Roman soldier.
What would not be appropriate with this kit however, is a pugio. There is VERY little evidence for their use in a military context during the second century AD. Pugiones do seem to make a re-appearance in the early third century AD but in a much larger form with a simpler type of sheath, as with the examples from Kunzing and Copthall Court.

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/7674/pugio6rd.jpg

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-pugio.html

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Fabius,

What would not be appropriate with this kit however, is a pugio. There is VERY little evidence for their use in a military context during the second century AD. http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/7674/pugio6rd.jpg

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-pugio.html

Crispvs

So, there is some evidence then? :? ? ?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The examples showed are III century. as Crispus have said:

"Pugiones do seem to make a re-appearance in the early third century AD but in a much larger form with a simpler type of sheath, as with the examples from Kunzing and Copthall Court. "

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

but that is not what he refered to

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Fabius,

What would not be appropriate with this kit however, is a pugio. There is VERY little evidence for their use in a military context during the second century AD.
Crispvs

To be precise my dear Watson.....