How to portray a Spartan king from the classical era?

[Ghostmojo]

The hippeis were the 300 Spartan bodyguards when on campaign.They were chosen by the 3 hippagretes,each one chose 100 hippeis.It doesn't seem that all of the hippeis had to have male children. However Herodotus points that out,that each of the 300 Spartans who were chosen for Thermopylae had male children. So these must not have been the hippeis. Now,in every Spartan campaign one of the Kings was in charge of the army. The king was usually fighting in the center of the Spartan phalanx,not to the right. Just usually the Spartans were placed to the right end. In Mantineia for instance,to the right were the Tegeans and just to the right of the Tegeans a tiny unit of Spartans were placed.
In Thermopylae there was not a Spartans army a portion of which would make the king bodyguard. The whole Spartan force was 300 hoplites.
In my opinion the number 300 does not mean anything in particular. It must be noted that this is a very common number when any other city or army made a special force. They may have had a religious significance,or perhaps they thought that this was the correct number of hoplites in order to be sufficient to fight and few enough to move rapidly. Throughout the peloponnesian was and perhaps earlier we see the number 300 very often,not only as a permanent force but occasionally,and usually by the name "logades". In contrats to Stefanos,I don't believe the "logades" was a city's special force,not was consisted of permanent members. When they were needed,some volunteers of the army took an oath before acting(from which took their name), and were acting as a unit until they fulfilled theit particular task.
Khaire
Giannis

I have some points to add to all of that. I have a theory that the unit that fought would have amounted to 304 men including the king and hippagretes. It may well be that the term 300 is generalised rather than exact. In other words there were indeed 300 individual hippeis - usually picked from the younger age groups - but with their sub-commanders alongside them and the diarch as well - then perhaps the total unit strength was more than 300 (but only just). 304 or maybe a few more?

That might sound very pedantic - and perhaps it is - but I offer it up as a counter to the nonsensical statement made by Victor Davis Hanson (who should know better) that the Spartan king fought alongside 299* bodyguards!!! (* I suppose this would be true if one soldier was immediately killed). The king in his version being the 300th. I always took the king to be as well as the 300 - rather than part of it.

There are accounts of the Spartan king having only 100 chosen bodyguards. I have always taken that to be 100 men from each of the three Dorian subtribes within Sparta (and elsewhere). There are tantalising questions remaining though, one of which is given that there were two kings - before the Ephoral decision that only one would accompany an army in the field - was there 300 knights for each king - or did the hippeis surround both?

The argument whether the men accompanying Leonidas I to Themopylai were hippeis or not, is a moot one. Where does it say that hippeis is anything other than a term meaning knight/horseman (although no longer mounted)? Is there ever a clear reference to the fact that a hippeis HAS to be from the younger unmarried year groups? Surely that was just convention - the bravest, best, fittest etc. The king could orchestrate the picking of his own bodyguard (as he did in August 480BC) directly or via the hippagretai as he wished. It was his unit (outside of main army state control). I wonder whether the other king participated in this (although they often didn't get on)?

My view is that a chosen member of the 300 was a knight, regardless of age or marital status, regardless of unusual circumastances in his selection and so on. To be chosen was enough and off they went to defend their king.

There is also a reference to another unit of 300 (sometime in the 300'sBC I think although memory fails me) who were sent as a picked force to fight in Messenia. I seem to remember they were anihilated so presumably they weren't the crack troops that the hippeis were.

Fascinating stuff. I wish we knew the exact truth.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

So we don't disagree saying that the 300 in Thermopylae were not the Hippeis. Because we do know from Herodotus that the 300 sent to Thermopylae were chosen one by one to be not the bravest(although the might were) but those that had male children. Since nowhere else do we hear of this term to become an Hippeas, we can asume that the 300 of Thermopylae were not the hippeis. Further more,the Hippeis might have been exactly 300 without the king but with all their officers(the hippagretae were not officers and perhaps they were over 60 so were not fighting with the hippeis). However the troops sent to Thermopylae might not have been 300 since all of Herodotus' numbers are rounded from every city's hoplites for this battle. But Herodotus mentions that he traveled in Sparta and saw the all the names of the "300". An assumption would be that they were indeed 300 chosen Spartans but were not fighting as a unit but with the rest Lacedaemonians(perioikoi) sent in Thermopylae with them.
As I said in my previous post,the number "300" is a typical one for chosen troops. It's pointless to say that every time we hear of that number of troops they must have been the hippeis,or even a permanent special force of each city.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

City states had an elite force between 300 to 5000.
I am not certain if the Hippes all or ellements of them went to Thermopylae.
I am more incline to accpet 2 bodyguards for the king.

Ploutarch mentions 80(!) boduguards in life of Agesialos but myself and co-author G. Ilioppoulos believe that after the horrific bloodbath of the late 5th and mid 4th century thesw 80 men were all that remained from the oned proud 300 hippeis.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Ok thanks for all the help so far guys. :mrgreen:

But I have some more questions where those came from :twisted: . I'm just the kind of guy who wants to be sure about everything, or well, as sure as one can be.


1) The king would fight alongside the Hippeis on the front. Now would the Hippeis fight on the right of the Spartan line or in the center? The right is where usually the heavy troops were placed, though I read on this tread that the Hippeis were put in the center. So in the center of the Spartan Phalanx, not in the center of the entire Lakedaemon Phalanx.

2) The Macedonian Agryspides, I read somewhere that they would usually be put in the center of Macedonian and Seleucid Phalanx. Is this true or would they usually fight on the right next to the Hypaspists?

[Mythos_Ruler]

2) The Macedonian Agryspides, I read somewhere that they would usually be put in the center of Macedonian and Seleucid Phalanx. Is this true or would they usually fight on the right next to the Hypaspists?

The Argyraspides and Hypaspists of the Diadochoi were not the same as those used by Alexander.

[Phalanx300]

I know that, though I'm more talking about there role.

Here is a quote from a Europa Barbarorum unit description of the Agryspides (Europa Barbarorum is a Historical accurate mod of Rome Total War, http://www.europabarbarorum.com )

The veteran Pezhetairoi are often called Argyraspidai ("Silver Shields") in Makedonia, while in Arche Seleukeia they are drawn from the sons of mainly Makedonian military-settlers, primarily from the katoikiai, or military settlements, of Syria. These are tough men often better armed than their fellow phalanx soldiers, who usually are used to hold the center of a Makedonian or Seleukid battle line. They are older and more disciplined than other phalangitai and are thus able to hold their own against good odds. They are armed and armored much the same as regular Pezhetairoi, but with slightly better equipment and weapons, including scale reinforcement on their Linothorax. As with most elite units, they are best utilized as troops that take the brunt of an assault and can be counted upon to hold their ground.

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

And I've been searching the net for a good Spartan sword, the small sword of which they used to mock the Spartans.

So far I found 2 swords, I'm wondering which one of the two is better(in terms of Historical accuracy)?

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/spartan-swords.html

http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php ... =1&c_id=14

[hoplite14gr]

Spartans strated with long swords lik e everybody else.
The earliest example of such short swords is not the British museum example proposed by Dr Segunda but a marble relief in the Kunsthistorishes Museum in Vienna dated roughly 450 B.C.

Kind regards

[Hoplite480]

As Stefanos said, The lakonian sword (the first one) is not historically accurate for the earlier period- If you are really dead set on getting one for comparison purposes (i.e. to show the differences or evolution), you might want to go for this one at $29. Its not too bad (the guard is curved where all the other examples I have seen are straight, but it looks exactly like the Windlass one at 1/4 the price.). Just remember, you get what you pay for. Mine had a bent tang and needed some working to get it looking ok. Nothing too hard, but its not the same as youd get from Manning, thats for certain.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~ite ... +Sword.htm

The scabbard is... crap, however, so you would need to make a new one, which is actually not too hard and would only be about $10-$15. Just dont go trying to do anything other than display it. I havent really tried, but I dont think it would stand up to too much.

For a longer one (if you dont want to commision one), this one looks quite good, although ive never held one, I plan to pick one up soon, so I will put up a review of it. Although again, you will more than likely have to redo the scabbard, as Im not too hot on the one they show, and im fairly certain the fittings are steel instead of brass. Again, however, thats not too hard to do.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~ite ... +Sword.htm

Im not sure (Someone please chime in here) but I think you might be able to use a Kopis (Im remembering a rather famous bowl painting of the wars with a Hoplite with one) but from what I understand they werent as common back then as they are with reenactors now.

Hope that helps.

[Phalanx300]

I'll better ask this here then opening a new tread .

I'm wondering for the cheek/troat guards of the Corinthians. I've seen depictions of a Corinthian Helmet with a Ram portrayed at the cheek parts. I've read that Spartans had that to honour the fallen Spartans. Is this true? It would make for a nice decoration on a future Corinthian :twisted: .

[Peter Raftos]

Peter,
I think you are referring to this statue of a hoplite with rams heads on the cheek pieces [url:13kd12g0]http://www.cornellcollege.edu/classical_studies/ariadne/graphics/images/Sparta%20Leonidas500.jpg[/url] It is usually referred to as Leonidas. It was found near the Roman theatre in Sparta. Fitzhardinge dates it to the 1st quarter of the 5th C in his book The Spartans.

Discussions of the Spartan sword can be found by searching the RAT threads for Spartan sword, spartan xiphos, laconian xiphos or laconian sword. Check the Beginners section and look under Kit as well as the other topics. A lot of ground has already been covered.

We are looking forward to you starting the first Spartan Mora in the Nederlands.

[Peter Raftos]

Peter,
Just noticed that Jeroen Leeuwensteyn aka Dutch Hoplite is part of the forum. He is based in A,sterdam. You may want to touch base with him and talk about getting a group up and running.

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the help Peter, sorry for the late reply. :oops:

I´m more thinking to do reenactment when I´m a tad older.

Also guys, I have another question about this picture, just noticed that on the bottum part you can see outer rims of shields with outer rim symbols, I´m wondering what those mean? I believed that the wave symbols were indicating that the Hoplite was an Marine.



So I'm thus trying to figure out the meaning of the lower four outer rims, any help on the case would be appreciated. :mrgreen:

[hoplite14gr]

The ram was ascociated with apollo but northen Greeks and skythians asociated it with the gods of war.

In the geometric/archaic period when the tribal links were stronger the shield rims identifies the 3 Doric clans.
The triangles identified the Acheans. The triangles appear on all the hearths of the Achaic bronze Age palaces.
Same aplies for the circles (spherae)
The menanders, squears(kibotia), the flame and letuce(thrinax) appear from the Archaic to Classical period
Sources: G Kaibel INSCRIPTIONES GRECAE Berlin 1890, Schimmelpfeng DE BRASIDAE SPARTANI REBUS GESTIS ATQUE INGENIO Marburg 1857, Bockh-Frantz CORPUS INSCRIPTIONUM GRAECARUM Berlin 1828

The Spartan Marines were most likely recruited from the morae of Elos and Pylos (Bull and Leopard respectivelly)
http://www.spartasmores.gr/index.files/Page830.htm

Kind regards

[Dutchhoplite]

Peter,
Just noticed that Jeroen Leeuwensteyn aka Dutch Hoplite is part of the forum. He is based in A,sterdam. You may want to touch base with him and talk about getting a group up and running.

I'm not from Amsterdam ( hock: )! Besides, i've got barely time with all my work and other real life stuff going on