More glue - bah

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Ah Okay Paullus, i misread your post indeed! i was thinking you were speaking of breaking Bamboo..

Great that we have so many Samurai Buffs on here

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Scott/Rocktupac wrote:

I never said Pisthetaerus was a priest. I don't have it wrong. Read it again. Pisthetaerus orders a priest's slave (the priest is no longer around) to give the poet his (i.e. the slave's) spolas. Where is this wrong? The slave has a spolas and a tunic. My was point was that a priest's slave wearing armor (the spolas) is quite strange. What would a slave be doing wearing armor?

....this is a rather pointless digression, but it does demonstrate the fact that carelessness can creep in when interpreting sources. I'm afraid you are wrong in this particular instance! The priest doesn't have a slave ! Pisthetairus earlier orders HIS slave to fetch the basket, and the priest merely wonders where the slave has got to.....

There are just two slave characters - Xanthias, the slave of Pisthetairus and Manodorus/Manes, the slave of Euelpides.

As to the slave POSSIBLY wearing 'spolas'/armour, note that previously in the play the two slaves are ordered by Tereus ( the Bird leader):
"Take their suits of armour in the house—
hang the stuff up in the kitchen there,"

....but at first Pisthetairus refuses to take off his armour, until a pact is sworn - so the slaves might well be wearing/carrying 'armour/spolas' when Pishetairus orders his slave (Xanthias) to give the spolas to the poet...hypothetically, the slave could well be carrying/wearing armour ( 'wearing' so as to leave hands free to carry shield, spear etc).

...... Confusing, eh? :? wink: :wink:

Nevertheless, for the avoidance of doubt, on balance of probability, I would accept that the reference is probably to something like a sheepskin waistcoat, typical of peasants and slaves. However, it is curious that Aristophanes uses the 'Doric'/Peloponnesian form 'spolas' and not the usual Attic form 'stole'. Xenophon uses the 'Doric' word to specifically mean armour....a pointer that armour might be meant here too ? :wink:
Incidently, the 'spolas' is described as NOT woven (soooo... IF it were Pisthetairus armour/spolas being referred to here, it ain't linen!!! :wink: :lol: ) After receiving the spolas, the poet laments his lack of same):
POET [making up a quotation]
“Out there amid nomadic Scythians,
he wanders from the host in all his shame,
he who has no woven garment shuttle-made—
a spolas on, but no tunic to his name.”
I speak so you can understand.

PISTHETAIROS
Yes, I get it—you want the tunic, too.
[To the slave] Take it off. We must assist our poets.
Take it and get out.

Hpoefully we need digress no longer on the subject of Aristophanes......

[Astiryu1]

I am a student of martial arts and considered a lifer by all around me. I have 21 years of practice myself and I am thrilled to know there are many more on RAT. Gamsahamnida, Domo, Thanks!!!
I was merely tying together unique materials and knowledge/history on the subject. I fully agree that the armor was probably not pine (understatement). The cultures of old simply have a way of using uncommon materials for great things in war and peace. I believe there are many things humanity has forgotten within a generation or two for a more practical solution. Still I always wondered though if a well placed front kick could shatter a wooden shield. The Ashigaru padded armor comes to mind I believe it was dual layer leather with a woven reed core.( please correct me if I am wrong )

[Paullus Scipio]

If you have practised 'tamashiwara' techniques yourself, you will know the reason why it would be all but impossible to 'shatter a wooden shield' despite its relative thin-ness compared to the boards used for 'tamashiwara'........

[PMBardunias]

Board not hit back......

[Paullus Scipio]

:lol: :lol: :lol: .......no, actually, nor is it because anyone attempting such a thing would find themselves impaled on sword or spear before even getting into kicking distance.... :lol: :lol:

[Astiryu1]

Board not hit back......

It does if you hit hard and fast enough!!!
P.S.- Enter the Dragon kicks ass!!! :wink:

Let's get back to glue. Shall we?

[Archelaos]

which the Egyptians mostly used instead of glue

Proper interpretation of this phrase can make it clearly on topic.
I am not sure how it works in original greek, but in english I think you may say that word "instead" suggest that Egyptians were doing lamination differently than methods known to author - with resign in place of glue. Then as the author is Greek, it may make us believe Greeks used linen laminate kept together with glue. What they used it for? Definately not for mumies...

[Tarbicus]

Graham Sumner alert!! Roman Military Dress springs to mind :wink:

also very special is this dog armour:

[PMBardunias]

I am not sure how it works in original greek, but in english I think you may say that word "instead" suggest that Egyptians were doing lamination differently than methods known to author - with resign in place of glue. Then as the author is Greek, it may make us believe Greeks used linen laminate kept together with glue. What they used it for?

The relevent passage is this (When it is short, please quote it in the original message so we don't have to drag out Herodotus):

Herotodus 2.86[6] and when the seventy days have passed, they wash the body and wrap the whole of it in bandages of fine linen cloth, anointed with gum, which the Egyptians mostly use instead of glue;

I noticed this at first as well, but on reflection we have no idea what the "instead" refers to. Instead of glue for laminating linen? Instead of glue for laminating in general- greeks surely laminated wood to make shields for example. It is not a question of Greeks not having glue, so Herodotus is telling us that they mostly use gum instead. It would of course have been more useful if ol' Herodotus had written: "to protect the mummy, he is wrapped in layers of linen like those of a linothorax, but using gum instead of the glue we use."

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Graham Sumner alert!! Roman Military Dress springs to mind :wink:

also very special is this dog armour:

I take it you are refering to the armour worn by the soldiers on that Arch? The one I was always touting as a subarmalis...
sure looks like it!

[Astiryu1]

What is this gum spoken of? This is very intriguing. I would like to know what plant it is derived from. What process would be used to render it? Is there any archeological finds?

[Dan Howard]

You'd first need to see the original word that Herodotus uses. I'm betting that it could be translated as anything that comes out of a tree. In English it could be gum, resin, sap, pitch, etc.

And where is the "lamination" in that passage? They wrap the body in linen and hold it in place with sticky tree stuff. So?

[Astiryu1]

It would be much the same as a modern cast for broken bones wouldn't it? That is gauze with glue or some type of resin applied. That is some hard stuff!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Old kingdom:

Very few mummies have been found from this period, but linen and plaster were important components. An examination of one Old Kingdom body revealed that the limbs were wrapped separately; altogether sixteen layers of linen were wound around the body. Often plaster was applied to the bandages to create a kind of "mummy sculpture." Sometimes a separate layer of plaster was added as a final layer, which created an even more statue-like look. The face would be painted onto the linen/plaster.

During the 4th Dynasty, internal organs were apparently removed for the first time. The abdomen was then packed with linen. The plaster sculpture look was generally stopped by the end of the 6th Dynasty or the beginning of the 7th Dynasty, though later examples are known, especially one in the 11th Dynasty. Sometimes rather than linen/plaster, linen/resin was used (with padding beneath with bandages); the face was then painted green (the color of resurrection, according to Egyptologist Joyce Tyldesley). Old Kingdom mummies might also be dressed in linen clothes (worn over the the wrappings). The plaster and resin mummies looked great, but produced terrible mummy results--underneath the wrappings, the mummies rotted from the moisture trapped inside.

Middle Kingdom:

During this time period, many different methods of mummification were used. Mummymakers learned to remove internal organs, but not necessarily all of the main four (that were eventually removed): liver, lungs, stomach, and intestines. The heart was almost always left in the body, but there are examples of its removal and replacement (after wrapping it with linen) inside the body. The body's face was no longer painted; instead, a funerary mask was placed over the mummy's head. Some researchers suspect that one (more unusual) method of making mummies used during this a part of this time period was cedar oil enemas (strange but true), which seems to have been used at least in some mummies during the 11th Dynasty. Rather than cutting the body open to remove internal organs, mummymakers seem to have injected cedar-oil/ turpentine into the rectum; this substance would help dissolve (at least partially) the internal organs. But this method would never have been used on important people; it may well have been an economy measure.

New Kingdom:

During this time period, royal mummymakers almost always removed the brain, removed the four internal organs (they were washed and dried, painted with resin, and wrapped in linen), and coated the body with lots of resin. Sometimes when they removed the lungs, they may have accidentally removed the heart--they wrapped it up and returned it to the body. After drying the body with natron (and most likely changing the natron whenever it got moist), they would fill the body with resin-soaked linen to provide a natural shape and inhibit insects from settling in. Other non-royal mummies made during the New Kingdom show that, although the brain and the internal organs were not removed, they were well-wrapped. At least one non-royal New Kingdom mummy was also coated in beeswax possibly to help with preservation.

Third Intermediate Period:

The best royal mummymaking methods are found in the 21st Dynasty. At that time, they did their best to make a mummy as real and lifelike as possible. They removed internal organs through an incision in the abdomen (and then placed them back within the body)--then covered it with a metal plate with the design of an eye." They made numerous other incisions (apparently between five and seventeen cuts) in the skin so that the body could be padded realistically. The abdomen, the back, and the neck would be padded out (often with linen, sawdust, sand, and/or mud); so would arms, legs, buttocks, and thighs. They often placed wax over the eyelids and plugged the nose and ears with wax or linen as well. After drying and packing, the body would be painted next (red = men; yellow = women); eyes would be replaced with glass, stone, or painted linen. The entire body would then be coated with hot resin and bandaged (a 10-15 day process for the bandaging alone). Of course, this was the best method of making mummies; not everyone had the resources required for such treatment.

Late Period:

From the 22nd Dynasty on, mummymaking techniques began to decline. More and more people wanted to become mummies upon death; mummymakers began to take many shortcuts-- except in their bandaging techniques (which are extraordinary). Mummymakers used less stuffing and more molten resin which tended to turn the mummies dark and heavy. Inside, under the bandages, the bodies were not in particularly good condition. Sometimes bodies were mixed up and combined (accidentally) so that scientists have found parts or two or more people wrapped together sometimes. Internal organs were placed in canopic jars again during the 26th Dynasty. In succeeding dynasties, wrapped internal organs were placed between the mummy's legs but "dummy" canopic jars (they were empty) were used for symbolic purposes.

SOURCES: Carol Andrews' Egyptian Mummies (a very clear explanation of the mummification process and photos of such intriguing objects such as tongue plates and embalming equipment); Ikram and Dodson's The Mummy in Ancient Egypt (the best and most thorough book about Egyptian mummification, filled with photos and interesting details); Silverman's Ancient Egypt (an excellent historical summary for the general reader); Tyldesley's The Mummy (a book by one of the foremost Egyptologists).

http://www.mummytombs.com/egypt/methods.htm

Type of Resin:

Organic chemistry of embalming agents in Pharaonic and Graeco-Roman mummies

Stephen A. Buckley & Richard P. Evershed

Article:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 837a0.html

About Perfume in Egypt:

http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/0pb1r0w3

Also helpful:


*Jstor.

Characterization of the Balm of an Egyptian Mummy from the Seventh Century B.C.
Maria Perla Colombini, Francesca Modugno, Flora Silvano and Massimo Onor
Studies in Conservation, Vol. 45, No. 1 (2000), pp. 19-29
Published by: International Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works

Summary-

"An analytical procedure for the characterization of plant resins, waxes, bitumen, oils and their
degradation products in mummy balms is described. The method is based on the selective extraction of these
compounds from Ig samples with CH2Cl2 and, after drying the residue, with n-hexane, followed by a Florisil
chromatographic clean-up step of the non-polar extract and by the saponification of an aliquot of dried
CH2CI2 extract. Polar compounds were derivatized with t-butyl-dimethyl silyl trifluoroacetamide
(MTBSTFA). Quantitative determinations were obtained by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. The
procedure, tested on suitable reference materials such as beeswax and plant resins, showed a recovery of about
100 o for non-polar compounds. Using this method, pine resins (P. pinea and P. sylvester), mastic resin
(Pistacia lentisca and P. terebinthus), sandarac (Tetraclinis articulata), elemi (Canarium), dammar
(Hopea), myrrh (Commiphera) and a pine resin from the second century A.D. were characterized.
Identification was based on the characteristic pattern of the diterpenoid and triterpenoid compounds contained
in these natural products. Results on Egyptian mummy samples from the seventh century B.C. were obtained
and showed that the main components used in the embalming process were mastic resin from the genus
Pistacia, an unidentified vegetable oil, beeswax and bitumen. Terpenoids degraded by a thermal treatment
were also found; therefore a hot fluid was used for embalming, confirming the practice hypothesized in the
Late period by Egyptologists"


Hope that helps!!

M.VIB.M.