07-08-2010, 04:16 AM
Immortal wrote:
Well, at least this is a concession in the right direction ! :wink:
This simply tells me that you have no high resolution detailed photographs available to you ! ( there are none available on-line). Having visited the original a number of times since 1975, and taken dozens of photos, I'm afraid I have the advantage of you !
There are 11 Persians whose lower faces are clearly visible, and virtually all have facial hair, even the youths display 'downy' young beards.Perhaps you think the youths in the foreground are clean shaven? By way of example, here is a detail of the young man under Darius' horses. You can see he has a full beard and moustache. Alexander's victim, the young man holding the horse and the Persian reflected in the 'aspis' held by a Greek Hoplite are all similar....
Indeed at Issus none of our sources claim Alexander rode Boukephalus, and at Granicus, Plutarch specifically tells us he was not riding him - who would ride an old (23 plus) horse in a major battle? Plutarch (Alexander 32 ) records the tradition that Alexander rode Boukephalus only for the charge at Gaugemala, because he was "past his prime" ( I'll say! ) . Arrian (V.14) clearly does not believe the story of Boukaphalus dying of wounds at Hydaspes. The most probable explanation is that Alexander never rode Boukephalus in any of his Asian battles! ( being around 22 or older at the outset!)
In short, the horse in the mosaic tells us nothing, and cannot be evidence of anything.....
As to Persian 'sacred' white horses, don't you think it might be a seriously bad omen if a 'sacred' horse were wounded or ( Gods forbid!) killed in battle? Why do you think 'sacred' horses were used in battle? Herodotus refers to Mardonius riding a white charger ( not sacred) at Plataea, but the 'sacred' white horses associated with Cyrus and Xerxes only appear for religious purposes...
Another piece of 'non-evidence'.....
Please produce this paper before discussing this matter any further, for what you suggest goes against all the evidence I am aware of, and as can be seen, the matters you have raised are either blatantly incorrect, or not evidence of what you propose at all.
Quote:How come none of the Persians have facial hair?
Quote:The majority of Persians have no facial hair (I counted 4 with it, including the king).
Well, at least this is a concession in the right direction ! :wink:
This simply tells me that you have no high resolution detailed photographs available to you ! ( there are none available on-line). Having visited the original a number of times since 1975, and taken dozens of photos, I'm afraid I have the advantage of you !
There are 11 Persians whose lower faces are clearly visible, and virtually all have facial hair, even the youths display 'downy' young beards.Perhaps you think the youths in the foreground are clean shaven? By way of example, here is a detail of the young man under Darius' horses. You can see he has a full beard and moustache. Alexander's victim, the young man holding the horse and the Persian reflected in the 'aspis' held by a Greek Hoplite are all similar....
Quote:If you are going to paint a heroic image of Alexander, would you not put him on his famous steed and not some reserve horse? Also, I believe it is well known that Alexander always rode Bucephalus on his final charge?Not 'reserve' - simply one of many chargers. Furthermore, how can you tell this is not meant to be Boukephalus? ( Ox-Head). Apart from his name, almost nothing is agreed about this legendary horse. Only Arrian calls him 'black' ( Arrian V.19 ), and even then, this term was apparently used of dark-coloured horses generally. Significantly such coloured representations presumed to be Alexander mounted, that we do have, show him on a 'Bay' (brown and black) horse. There is no agreement on his fabulous worth (Plutarch: 13 Talents; Pliny 16 Talents) ;how he got his name ( a brand, a blaze on his forehead, his physically large ox-like head); how he died ( slain by Porus' son, old age - 28 or 30, even that is not agreed ! (Arrian V.14; Plutarch 61).
Indeed at Issus none of our sources claim Alexander rode Boukephalus, and at Granicus, Plutarch specifically tells us he was not riding him - who would ride an old (23 plus) horse in a major battle? Plutarch (Alexander 32 ) records the tradition that Alexander rode Boukephalus only for the charge at Gaugemala, because he was "past his prime" ( I'll say! ) . Arrian (V.14) clearly does not believe the story of Boukaphalus dying of wounds at Hydaspes. The most probable explanation is that Alexander never rode Boukephalus in any of his Asian battles! ( being around 22 or older at the outset!)
In short, the horse in the mosaic tells us nothing, and cannot be evidence of anything.....
As to Persian 'sacred' white horses, don't you think it might be a seriously bad omen if a 'sacred' horse were wounded or ( Gods forbid!) killed in battle? Why do you think 'sacred' horses were used in battle? Herodotus refers to Mardonius riding a white charger ( not sacred) at Plataea, but the 'sacred' white horses associated with Cyrus and Xerxes only appear for religious purposes...
Another piece of 'non-evidence'.....
Quote:I am told that the paper makes a very strong argument that the mosaic we know is not THE mosaic that Pliny refers to. Are you saying that it is impossible that this mosaic could not be a copy of a much later Hellenistic copy of the original? Or could it not be a copy of the copy that Pliny refers to? I cannot see why you think 'This is simply not possible'.Pliny in his Natural History does not refer to the mosaic, but rather the original painting, not a copy. There is no evidence for any 'copies' or 'copies of copies'. The mosaic dates to ( at the latest! ) c. 100 BC, and may be much older, judging by it's wear-and-tear, especially if it was originally brought to Italy as booty. Since the original painting was painted circa 310-300 BC, and since the mosaic is only 1-200 years later, and since the original painting was extant in Pliny's time, there is no room for 'copies of copies' - for which there is no evidence anyway !!
Please produce this paper before discussing this matter any further, for what you suggest goes against all the evidence I am aware of, and as can be seen, the matters you have raised are either blatantly incorrect, or not evidence of what you propose at all.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff