The Inevitable Football Topic

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Had to laugh at one of the very first games on that front.....some guy went down in agony....the nearest player was about a foot away from him.. :roll: :roll:

[Paullus Scipio]

......there were no less than TWO "Diving Classics", one by each side in the Brazil v Cote d'Ivoire game alone !! :lol: :lol:

[Doc]

Paul,

You can see what you like but a good dive is part of the game and if it works, well..........

As far as the Australian situation in the last world cup, that was a penalty not a dive. Both the Australian players and the New Zealenders are strong athletes with great stamina and endurance, I will grant that. However, they do not really have any technical quality relative to the top European teams. Whenever they cannot win the ball because they just cannot match the skill, they resort to elbows. kicking the other players, etc. Again that was not a penalty for Italy today BUT the New Zealand team had it coming and they got beat at their own game.

How many fouls did New Zealand commit in the first half alone? At least five. Why? Every single action that required that two players jump to hit the ball with the head, the New Zealenders threw the elbow first, then used their head. Of course this makes sense. Once your opponent is knocked to the ground, even a person who is blind will get the ball.

Now, again, I am not picking on one team or another since I enjoy watching as many teams that I can. However, certain truths are evident as you say Paul. Italy is good at the dive no question but if you can use it to win, why not? Anyone who cries about it will just have to play soccer and find out why it is necessary at times.

Besides, its easy for us to see certain things with all the replay angles and replay speeds. However, the refs do not have the same advanatage and will call what is at eye level. I was a ref at a soccer match ONCE (notice the operational word) and that was enough for me.

[Paullus Scipio]

Doc/Paolo wrote:

Paul,

You can see what you like but a good dive is part of the game and if it works, well..........Italy is good at the dive no question but if you can use it to win, why not? Anyone who cries about it will just have to play soccer and find out why it is necessary at times.

Yes it is part of the game these days,... the fact that a piece of 'play acting', which is deliberate cheating if it succeeds, is considered "ok" or "necessary" is one good reason why the game of soccer has become farcical

As far as the Australian situation in the last world cup, that was a penalty not a dive.

Yes, a penalty awarded for a blatant 'dive' as the replays, played endlessly over and over, showed. Indeed the player concerned (Fabio Grosso) did not even deny it, but simply shrugged, and stated, like you, that it was 'all part of the game' i.e. that it's O.K. to cheat !! For those interested, it is still current on You-tube here:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr2oTmQ0GwM

Both the Australian players and the New Zealenders are strong athletes with great stamina and endurance, I will grant that. However, they do not really have any technical quality relative to the top European teams.

With populations of around 25 million and 4 million, and considering soccer is not the main football code in either country, both are 'punching above their weight' and most of the top players play in Europe anyway, so not true, I think. The more so when the only way the current 'World Champions' can beat them is by blatant cheating ! (
In the light of all this and with websites like "Dive of the Day", perhaps your signature should be altered to read:
"You have to laugh at soccer or what else are you going to laugh at?" :wink: D lol:

[Doc]

Paul,

Do you play soccer by any chance? I am just aksing because looking at the video, the Austalian player did not "trip" Grosso BUT when you go for the ball and you MISS it completely and then place your body in front of the opponent that is heading for goal, that is called obstruction and that is a foul. It so happens that on that obstruction, Gross fell over the top of the defender but it is a foul nonetheless. Maybe if the defender was a little faster in getting to the ball instead of sprawling himself on the floor, the outcome would be different. Do not take the call so black and white. That is why I asked if you ever really played the sport. I was a semi-pro player in the states and I played defense. This sort of thing happened to me as well and I too protested but the ref would not hear of it at all.

You say that the only way the champions could win is by cheating but they did win the tournament in the end. I wonder how far Australia would have gotten and by giving me the populations does not change the argument. Yes, soccer is not their thing which is something I perfectly understand. However, throwing elbows and kicking the opponents because they do not have the skill to take the ball cleanly has nothing to do with how big soccer is in Australia or New Zealand. If the ball cannot be taken cleanly then leave it be. Teams with more experience will take all the fouls and cause fouls. Then when the time is right, a foul will happen in the penalty area in some form.

Even Henry hit the ball with his hands twice causing a goal that ended Irelands chances. It was horrible but what do you suppose Henry do? Go to the official and say "Hey I hit it with my hand, please do not less us into the world cup! What athlete in any sport is going to give up the chance to represent his/her country in a sport that puts people on the world stage.

All these things that you call cheating are part of the game. Do you thing that in Rugby all the games are free and clear of nonsense.

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, I played soccer in my youth, as well as Australian Rules Football and Rugby. It was a long time ago though - and long before the era of "diving", or cheating/deliberately breaking the rules became acceptable openly !

I hear what you say, about rules, but Grosso did not 'fall over the top' of the defender - rather he deliberately threw himself down to 'milk' the penalty, as he admitted afterward. To him, and many, this was an acceptable part of the game, but I venture to suggest that would not be a majority of people.

My point was that if the only way Italy could beat Autralia in 2006 or New Zealand was by cheating, then clearly they are not 'technically better' than these teams if they are so desperate as to deliberately 'cheat'.

And I also take the point you make about Thierry Henri - which doesn't alter the fact that it was blatant cheating ( the ball did not 'accidentally' hit his hand- twice- he deliberately 'handballed' - and that is deliberately breaking the rules.) That sort of thing too goes back to Maradonna's infamous 'hand of God' and probably beyond.....

If soccer were a 'sport' then yes, Henri should have owned up - but it is now big business with far too much money at stake to allow honesty or sportsmanship to play any part!

Certainly 'cheating/breaking the rules' goes on in every sport/game, but in none so openly/blatantly as soccer! Nor does the fact that this has become 'acceptable'/part of the game make it right !

Instead it has made the so-called "beautiful game", and the 'World Cup' a farcical laughing stock ! For that soccer fans have FIFA to thank, together with Big Business/Money. Soccer will soon be as much about sport as 'pro-wresting'..... :lol: :lol:

[Epictetus]

France has some very good players, but the team is awful (like their coach).

And now the French team seems to be imploding. Sending a player home, refusing to practice, verbally (and almost physically) fighting in public... it is a mess. Frustrations are spilling over after not living up to expectations.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I agree with you 100% Paul.
One of a list of reasons why my interest waned in the sport after I moved here to Scotland....the first one being the
aversion to having darts stuck in the back of my head and 50p pieces in my eye just spectating.. hock:

[Robert Vermaat]

And now the French team seems to be imploding.

Next to follow, the English. Dissention, anger, breaking ranks.. Not good for a needed win to reach the next round.

[taira1180]

We win 7-0 (I'm portuguese)! That's a great victory. But I regret to what will happen to the poor north-corean players :|

[Doc]

Paul,

Good points and I agree that FIFA has really made a mess of things. I too remember in the 80's how soccer was a TOTALLY different game. Now, as you say, it is big business. As a matter of fact, EVERYTHING is big business including humanity. People are measured by how much money they have not their ethics and character. Not to go OT, but look at these Hollywood Stars (I call them black holes), the majority are all junkies and degenerates. However, they have money and the movies make money, so they are ok and still in the spotlight. Oh well......

That sort of tactic of diving as you call it "cheating" is a technical play and when used properly effective. Do I agree with it? No, I too think its a cheat but it is still part of a strategy that gets the win. The final result counts not how you play the game (this is the motto of today). In the past it was important how you played not the win necessarily. It was great to win but not as a cheat. Do you think that all Italians were overjoyed that they tied New Zealand by a penalty that did not exist? For me Italy lost that game 1-0. As a matter of fact most of the people that I watched the game with including my family agreed that Italy played excellent but there was no penalty. Italy's major problem is that there is no go-to player and so they have to pull all the stops.

When it comes to technical skill, I do not think that you can equate the fact that just because the dive was necessary it does not make a team technically stronger than another. You cannot compare the fluidity and ball control movement of Italy to that of Australia. That is whay I mean by technical. This does not suggest that Australia sucks it just suggests that they cannot compete with that type of skill without being obvious to the viewer. However, soccer players know this and give it 100% which I think Australia should have been applauded for. It appears at least in this cup that the big teams are not having it easy because the other teams hungry for recognition are playing their hearts out which is great.

Again with Grosso, say what you will, the fact remains that the defender was sprawled on the floor obstructing the path to goal and that is a foul.

[Robert Vermaat]

We win 7-0 (I'm portuguese)! That's a great victory. But I regret to what will happen to the poor north-corean players :|

If they have any sense they remain in SA...

[taira1180]

I doubt, they have probably families and the consequences would be even worst.

[M. Demetrius]

USA is still hanging on.

[Paullus Scipio]

Yay!......the 'sleeping soccer colossus' seems to be awakening !!

Meanwhile, despite a gallant pride-salvaging win by Oz over Serbia, the 4-0 drubbing by Germany means for Oz, the World Cup is over, and they and Ghana go through, thanks to the vagaries of the system....though arguably both Oz and Serbia are better ! Oh well, at least there were none of those ridiculous 'penalty shootouts' - they will come later! All that effort, and then it comes down to the equivalent of the toss of a coin !

Luckily, Australian fans can switch support to the 'other' Australasian team a.k.a. "New Zealand" ! Doin' pretty well for a country of just a few million !!

On a more serious note, disturbing reports continue to emerge of the "Bread and Circuses" ( without the bread) approach of South Africa's government. Watched a doco of some god-forsaken town which has had a huge stadium erected for mega-millions, just for this event, and when its over the town/city won't have any use for it. Meanwhile just outside its gates, children whose unemployed parents could never afford a ticket play in the dirt with a football made of wound-up rags, and the local orphanage ( right next door!) is starved of funds and its children go hungry.....