V century impression

[Tarbicus]

I'd just like to ask Vorti if he got his telegram from Queen B yet?

[Robert Vermaat]

I'd just like to ask Vorti if he got his telegram from Queen B yet?

I vaguely recall you asked me that same question before.. Was it when I reached 2000 or 3000 posts?

But as a matter of fact I expect her call today.

[Tarbicus]

You've reached a hundred. QE2 always sends a telegram of congratualtions here.

[Restitvtvs]

Good luck and keep above ground as long as possible, Restitutus!

<DELETIA>

Aitor

Aitor: Thank you again, my friend. I also appreciate kind thoughts, prayers & comments from others.

Bad news is my recovery continues to be very slow, painful & erratic. Good news is my recover without surgery is sure, unless something else happens, may take another year of hard work & diet.

Since recovery is reasonably sure, I've revived my plans to do early to mid-5th century western Roman light infantry impression. Ergo, I've revived my Legio III Italica Concors Cohors V (I know of four Leg III Itals [2 in DE, 1 in IT & 1 in US], so I claimed Leg III Ital Coh V [Ich habe in der nähe von Regensburg zwei jahren gewohnt.]); and I'll soon resume research & compilation of items needed for basic & full kits, and post the list here for RAT members feedback for revisions.

As recommended by many RAT members, I'll start with basic items, adding items as time & new money allow. I'm particularly concerned about getting items that are at least good enough and also affordable.

Thanks again. Best regards, +r

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Restitvtvs,

I'm glad to hear that good news!

I've revived my Legio III Italica Concors Cohors V (I know of four Leg III Itals [2 in DE, 1 in IT & 1 in US], so I claimed Leg III Ital Coh V

I'm a bit confused - does that mean you're going to do 5th c. or not?

[Restitvtvs]

[Edit: My nice plans are shot again by another major setback. This is probably long-term... C'est la vei. ]

[Robert Vermaat]

Good!!

In that case - I'm really not sure if the LEG III was organised in cohorts by that time. And if it was, I'm not sure if there would've been a 5th cohort. We see the large 'old style legions' being split up from the late 3rd to the 4th century. Of course we can't tell if this was a universal process which extended to all units.

It seems that legions were split in two parts, the one half becoming a seniors and the other half a iuniores split-off. If not, legions ‘melted down’ along natural ways of losses by enemy action and vexillations that never returned. So far I have found no evidence that, by the 5th c., legions existed in the old strength – my guess would be that a 5th cohort would be extremely under strength or non-existent.

Legio III Italica was according to Ritterling a pseudocomitatensan unit in the East, which indicates that it was originally a border legion that at some point was raised to field army status. It seems unlikely that it retained its strength and all the cohort along the route, meaning that a 5th cohort may not have existed in the 5th century.

I’ll check if Hoffmann has more on this.

[Mithras]

Robert, I wonder if you could elaborate just a little on this subject of legionary subdivisions. I am struggling to comprehend what may have been going on in the 4thC. And I need to know!

I understand that many infantry units may have dropped to 1200, 1000, 800 or even 500 men. Some subdivision was necessary, but what were these divisions? The title of centenarius suggests that 100 man 'centuries' continued to exist, and Vegetius seems to back this terminology up. But he can be confusing, and at one point seems to confuse the terms. At one point he seems to be saying that there were no cennturies - only cohorts. From my understanding of an ancient cohort, the name meant a flexibly sized unit, determined only by the size of the units in it. Could the legionary subdivisions have been 100 man 'cohorts'?

He is an unreliable source. What is your best guess?

[Robert Vermaat]

My best guess concerning vegetius and unit subdivisions is that I think that he (Vegetius) was trying to marry earlier works (especially Polybius it seems) with the practise of his own (4th c.) days. Wheeler has written about the resulting confusion in his articles now and then. Vegetius at some points misunderstand cohort organisation, but at other points he's quite lucid.

Cohorts did exist in the the 4th c. legion - each one had a draco, for instance.

[Restitvtvs]

Robert: Thanks for further details. More things for me to re-research about the 5th c. western Roman Army.

Notitia Dignitatum (ca. 400 AD) XXXV Dux Raetiae has what seems to be a reference to Legio III Italica, still based in Castra Regina, and some "vexillations" across Reatia:

Sub dispositione viri spectabilis ducis provinciae Raetiae primae et secundae:
Equites stablesiani seniores, Augustanis.
Equites stablesiani iuniores, Ponte Aoni, nunc Febians.
Equites stablesiani iuniores, Submuntorio.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina, nunc Vallato.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris deputatae ripae primae, Submuntorio.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae pro parte media praetendentis a Vimania Cassiliacum usque, Cambidano.
Praefectus militum Ursariensium, Guntiae.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae transvectioni specierum deputatae, Foetibus.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae transvectioni specierum deputatae, Teriolis.
Praefectus alae primae Flaviae Raetorum, Quintanis.
Tribunus cohortis novae Batavorum, Batavis.
Tribunus cohortis tertiae Brittorum, Abusina.
Praefectus alae secundae Valeriae singularis, Vallatio.
Tribunus cohortis sextae Valeriaae Raetorum, Venaxamodorum.
Tribunus cohortis primae Herculeae Raetorum, Parroduno.
Tribunus cohortis quintae Valeriae Frygum, Pinianis.
Tribunus cohortis tertiae Herculeae Pannoniorum, Caelio.
Tribunus gentis per Raetias deputatae, Teriolis.
Praefectus numeri barbaricariorum, Confluentibus siue Brecantia.
Praefectus alae secundae Valeriae Sequanorum, Vimania.
Tribunus cohortis Herculeae Pannoniorum, Arbore.

My Latin skills are still basic & growing, so I'm about 50-75% sure about my understanding of LEG III ITAL references above. However, my declining German skills are still OK overall. Several German websites have LEG III ITAL history, refer to LEG III ITAL elements still operating in Raetia into the early 5th century, particularly around Alpine passes leading to Italia.

>[I'LL ADD APPLICABLE WEBSITE LINKS HERE IN A FEW WEEKS]<

That reminds me, if it's ready & possible, I'd like to proofread the RAT Ritterling LEG III ITAL text. That would refresh my memory about LEG III ITAL.

I appreciate any help with changing LEG III ITAL COH V name to the correct title for the LEG III ITAL (Main?) element that stayed in Castra Regina until the "end". +r

P.S. I'll cross-post this message to another thread elsewhere, for LEG III ITAL during the 2nd through 5th centuries AD.

[Restitvtvs]

My latest favorite 5th (& other) century Roman reference website links:

[Edit 080628: Link To Be Updated]

Not intended to be complete, but I would like to add other "top" websites that may be missing. Quality over quantity. +r

[Restitvtvs]

My latest favorite 5th (& other) century Roman Civilian Reenactment Supplier (in the U.S. & Canada [overseas shipping often too expensive for me

[Edit 080628: Link To Be Updated]

Of course, I'm missing many other suppliers (of civilian materials & finished items), so I would greatly appreciate your recommendations for other websites like these. +r

P.S. No need to repost links from material suppliers already posted here in other RAT posts. I will search through previous posts to get these links.

[Restitvtvs]

DELETIA

[Robert Vermaat]

This web page has links for Reenactment Groups with the same or similar interests & activities:
[url:2swdhn39]http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=271000&ck=[/url]

I see someone is following the latest update of my fectio links page....

[Restitvtvs]

Yep! And most thankful for your great website. +r