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03-02-2003, 10:42 AM

The battles were not too bad, but actors and acting... 
The first film was three times better. 
I would say it was one of the greatest dissappointments of mine. 
Do you remember The Dark Riders of the first film? Now it is just a fairy tale.

Jeroen Pelgrom · 03-05-2003, 04:25 PM

according to a behind-the-scenes book of LoTR, the Harad were inspired by the Saracens. Not a good choice if i say so. The Haradrim in the books are Africans, not muslims. They should be more like Zulu's. 
 
But, besides that, i really liked the 2 movies, really looking forward to Return of the King. 
 
gr, jeroen

naso · 03-06-2003, 01:04 AM

I noticed that too but I figured it was an effort at Political correctness since it would probably be considered offensive to some in the general public who fail to see past the obvious. Kind of like the masses of people today who see mark twain's huckleberry finn as racist because it uses some language that is objectionable today in order to make a point. Of course we all know the point of the book is that at the end Jim is seen as a man, an equal and not property. ANyway I hope I haven't stirred up a hornets nest but I can't stand political correctness especially when it misleads the public. 
 
Ave 
 
Naso

Jeroen Pelgrom · 03-06-2003, 08:08 AM

i also think that the reason for making the Haradrim look like saracens and not like Zulu's was a political choice. On the other hand, it could be that Peter Jackson had trouble finding a large amount of african actors willing to travel to New-Zealand. Too bad... 
 
gr, jeroen

naso · 03-06-2003, 09:21 PM

It may be the lack of african actors in new zealand. I realized that my example was a bit obscure. A more relevent example of an ill informed public is probably the problem the swastica's that appear on roman shields and clothing. 
 
Naso

03-07-2003, 12:45 AM

Yes, the Nazis heaped great dishonor on an ancient and honorable symbol. Near where I live, back in the 20's a local charachter built a hotel to his own artistic vision, and adorned the facade with swastikas, naturally intending them to represent the familiar Native American swastika. Nobody thought a thing about it until WWII when foreign tourists (i.e. not from New Mexico) raised a fuss. The old guy refused to cover them up and they remain there to this day. The building is now a state historic site, so they can't be altered now. future generations may wonder what all the fuss was about, if they even know there ever was a fuss.

***Praefectusclassis*** · 03-07-2003, 06:02 AM

No fuss necessary. There is a visible difference between the two swastika's, the Nazi one turns to the right, while the original one turns left. Greets 
 
Jasper

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-07-2003, 10:11 AM

Is there is an 'original' swastika? Maybe the Native American turns to the left, but the nazis did not copy that one. The nazis indeed used a swastika that 'turns to the right', but the 'original' they copied does not turn to the left, they turn both ways. The nazi swastika is reported to have originated from the rune srcipt, but there are several theories about that ([url=http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swasti09.htm" target="top]More info[/url]). Swastikas from sandinavian art turn left (sinistroverse) and right (destroverse). 
Swastikas are an ancient form or symbols that are to be found all over the world. There's the native American swastika, but there's also one found in the Bronza Age palace of Pylos, Greece. There's even a swastika-like letter in Hebrew! 
The most well-known are the Hindu swastikas, who turn both ways ([url=http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html" target="top]More info.[/url]). The 'left' one has a positive meaning, the 'right' (nazi) one stands for negative vibes. I guess this meaning is the same as that of the germanic/scandinavian one, coming from a shared Indo-European background. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/7/03 11:53:23 am

***Praefectusclassis*** · 03-07-2003, 10:22 AM

Hmm, ok. I once read the 'original' (I meant non-Nazi) Germanic one at least turned to the left (to sunrise), while the Nazi one turned to the right (sundown, i.e. darkness). 
 
Greets 
 
Jasper

03-07-2003, 02:15 PM

Ummmm...what do swastikas have to do with LoTR again? 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

***Praefectusclassis*** · 03-07-2003, 02:20 PM

What, now you're suddenly the OT police? 
 
 
"Pull over please, your thread is going of topic!" Greets 
 
Jasper

**richsc** · 03-07-2003, 02:40 PM

Got this from /. 
A recreation of the battle of Helms Deep as a DOOM WAD. 
 
slashdot.org/article.pl?s...33&tid=127 
 
Screenshots: 
www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~sdh300/helmsdeep/ Richard Campbell, Legio XX

Daniel S Peterson · 03-11-2003, 08:14 PM

At the advent of WWII, the Army National Guard Divison in New mexico also had the swastika as their unit patch due to the American Indian connection. They changed it, of course. 
 
Swastikas are everywhere in India, it is interesting to see them utilized in clothing, walls , etc oblivious of their connotation in the west. 
 
Germans sometime freak out at displays when they see the swastikas on the Dura Europas shield. Incidentally, Roman hobnailed boot soles were often in a swastika pattern. 
 
Dan

03-11-2003, 08:32 PM

Actually, while the Nazi swastika always turned clockwise, the American Indian one could go either way, often adapted to a decorative motif. 
Incidentally, Carl Sagan, in his book "Comets" has an interesting theory on why swastikas appear everywhere in the Northern Hemisphere since neolithic times, and nowhere in the southern. Believe it or not, it involves comets. However, this is getting rather far away for a Roman Army forum.

Gashford · 03-11-2003, 08:34 PM

Hello all 
 
A little while ago I had swastika on my shield as a copy of the Colchester Gladiator Vase, in the UK it gained a lot of interest and the whole swatika direction theories came up. 
 
It would seem that the original ones in all their forms and guises turned whichever way the artistans that made them decided and local custom dictated. 
 
I have lost my research now but they have been found as long ago as about 2,300BC, I think it was in modern day China or it might have been the Northern Americas, I forgot. 
 
When the Nazi symbol was formed it is believed that they just wanted a symbol of good luck for their enterprise and so chose a symbol which among other things was meant to be a good luck symbol. 
 
After WW2 those esoteric types wanted their symbol back but it had been hijacked by the Nazi movement and become tantamount to many of the evil deeds they represented and carried out. So the symbol was reversed from the Nazi version os now we have a good luck and a bad luck version. 
 
As for trouble with the dura europa, you want to try fighting with a large red shield with 8 inch swastikas put on it then you get grief from all corners, I chaged it in the end because it was in danger of becomming such a sticking point for some that they would have their whole day ruined. 
 
Just my five pennies worth. 
 
All the best 
 
Graham

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