Macedonian Silver Shields

[Paralus]

You are correct.

There were pictures of this (it was the previous year's exhibition) at the Onassis Centre this year (Jan) when I saw the "Athens-Sparta" exhibition. I took little notice as I walked in - previous exhibitions, replica busts and all that. It is why I am still looking for the shields (votive) above their heads.

They do exist. To find them is the thing.

[Hypaspist]

I am new to this Forum , But would like to comment some thoughts as to " Color" of Shields, ie " Silver" . As has been pointed out Tinned surfaces ( and Leaded ) has been use thoughtout history for coloring metal surfaces .It gives of Course a ," Silver " color .It seems reasonable to assume That this would be far more practical , if indeed a Silver color was wanted or needed than to cover a Bronze Shield with a layer or Silver , or Cover the Shield itself with Silver sheet . I would like to offer the , the " Alexander Mosaic " from Pompeii,as some Evidence the Coloring was used on Equipment . For the bloke behind Alexander with the Silver Boeotian helmet , if indeed a accurate depiction , would be at least a stretch of imagination and useless as decent protection on a battlefield , if made out of Silver. But as in some known" Roman" types , Rijksmuseum G.M. Kam,Nijmegen,EXIV 8B.27., a Montefortino Type D of the 1st century, that is Tinned Bronze ,it is not a great leap of faith to think this maybe what is a " Sliver Shield " ??
I also Find it amazing that some other material would be used for backing a shield Other than Wood ?? What Mud ?? :lol: Even If no trace has been found , well the Etruscan shield in the Museo Gregoriano, Vatican , Rome , does have alot of wood in it :lol: , But is Not Macedonian

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Right,tinned bronze is a possibility to me. The helmet behind Alexander may be iron,as well. Bear in mind that there have been found gold covered greaves, gorgets and even spears in Macedonian tombs. These were "royal", however and it is indeed extraordinary to think of a silver shield phalanx of 8000 soldiers! After al,it is inpractical.

[Hypaspist]

In My Tiny Little Mind ,
The Boeotian Helmet , is a Product of Form and material (Bronze) :roll: So I doubt these would have been produced in iron, Iron has different working Characteristics ... Yes I am aware too of Gold Venered Items , and Siver too :-) lol:

Michael Pechacek Sr

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis said:-

and it is indeed extraordinary to think of a silver shield phalanx of 8000 soldiers! After al,it is inpractical.

...why do you think this Giannis? These men had captured the wealth of Asia, sums so vast that they make the mind boggle...and their wealth had to be portable. Alexander was, quite simply, the richest man on the planet at the time. If he wanted to hand out a few talents worth of silver plated shields, that was mere small change to him......as to Hypaspist numbers, after the Susa re-organisation, there 3 chilarchies (3,000) of these, including the Royal Agema, and the later Argyraspides(the renamed Hypaspists) are also recorded as being 3,000 strong ( Diodorus 18.58.1).

...and tecnically, silver plating is no more difficult than tinning, and was a known technique of the time.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Perhaps you're right. Isn't it strange that there are no significant mentions about those particular shields? And no finds as well,given they were prescious metals(this is not so strange actually)...Could we estimate the value of all those shields in talents? The wealth of Asia is an impressive term. We all know that the wealth is never so much as to spare it in thousants of foot soldiers. Persian kings never equiped massively their bodyguards like that,and think that the jewelry and richness of Persian soldiers was famous to Greeks. I don't know,perhaps the wealth of Asia was really above any imagination :lol:
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-
"Could we estimate the value of all those shields in talents?"

Well, I think we can so...oo.....
Just for fun, I decided to work out what it would have cost Alexander to outfit the Hypaspists with the silver shields that would turn them into Argyraspides………

I decided that, as Alexander, I would be generous and instead of silver-plate, I would oufit the Hypaspists with solid silver, and I would assume Aspides, the larger shield.
Replacing the bronze face, around 1mm thick, with pure silver requires 636 grams of silver per shield so for 3,000 Hypaspists that would be 1908 kg of silver. There are 26kg to the Attic Talent, so about 73.3 Talents……….
The mines at Phillipi in Macedon alone yielded 1000 Talents per year…..
Now let us look at just some of the wealth which fell to Alexander as loot…..

Diodorus says that the capture of Susa brought in 40,000 talents of uncoined Gold and Silver and 9000 talents of darics(gold coins); that of Persepolis, 120,000 talents reckoning the gold added to the value in silver. Arrian (III.. I6. 7) Susa 50,000 talents, Persepolis, 120,000 talents. Curtius (V. 2. II; 6. 9). Susa, 50,000 talents, Persepolis, 120,000 talents. Plutarch, (Alex., 36. I; 37. 2) Susa 40,000 talents coined, Persepolis an equal amount of coin. Justin (XL. 14. 9) Susa 40,000 talents, Persepolis 120,000 coin.
3,000 Talents alone were taken in the baggage after Issus…
2,600 Talents of Gold and 600 Talents of Silver from Damascus….. and so on, and so on.
Notice that we haven't considered the wealth of Egypt, or Syria, or Anatolia etc etc

And none of this includes annual income in tribute and taxes either……

At Babylon, as a bonus, Alexander paid each cavalryman 600drachma (1/10th of a Talent) each foreign cavalryman 500 drachma, each Infantryman 200 drachma and so on. There were over 7,000 cavalry in total ( 6-700 Talents!!) and over 40,000 Infantry( more than 1,300 Talents !!!!)…..so about 2,000 Talents bonus paid to the Army. hock:
(As an aside, that was about 300days pay- possibly as much as a years pay - for the cavalry and infantry, as a bonus !! )

So what was that worth in modern terms? Well comparing approximate buying power, daily wages and so on, a Talent of Silver was worth in today's dollars U.S.$840,000 aprox!

For those too lazy to work it out, each shield had roughly U.S,$20,500 in today's money in silver on its face.....no surprise that none survived, eh? :lol:

So, as Alexander, I have no hesitation in spending a mere 73.3 Talents on new shields for my Loyal and Faithful Hypaspists/Guards……….. small change !! D lol: :lol: :lol:

[hoplite14gr]

Remeber also that the Army was probably the only expense of the state until probaly 1880. So asuming you are the ruler of Asia (among other things) oyu could afford to display impressively equiped troops.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey,I'm sure I had posted a reply in last Paul's message,but now I do not see it anywere :evil:
Anyway,I was saying that the actual thickness of the bronze covering was not 1 mm but 0.5mm or less.This reduces the overall cost Paul estimated to the half. And perhaps the wealth of Asia was indeed beyond imagination.The numbers mentioned are indeed extraordinary.
Khaire
Giannis

[Hypaspist]

I would Think that one problem still exisits for such numbers of Silver Covered Shields to be a real possibility , that is of Skilled labor to make Them . And the practicality of actual usuage . Silver is easier to "work" , and will Tool harden to give , certianly not as hard as surface as Tool hardened Bronze , but a decently hard surface . But Working with Silver requires some Skill that would be slightly different than Bronze , It will Stretch More , Tear easier , Where would so many Skilled Silver Workers Come From ?? And yes you could easily Train Skilled bronze workers to do this Sliver work in a Short time ..But I have a issue too... in Thinking not ALL shields would have had a FULL Bronze facing . And Then would you recover , or make all new shields ?? The Amount of Time and Highly Skilled Labor which would have been Scarce ,, I mean we are not talking about ALL SILVER WORKERS ,, But Silver Sheet Workers !! Silver Sheet Covered Shields certainly would be a special Status Symbol , but many times in History , just the Notion of a difference ( as in Black Uniforms) Made the needed distiction.So I still would go with Tinned Sheild faces :roll:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First of all,forgive us for not wellcoming you from your first post, Michael.
I think we are getting too much into speculation here...about how many sheet workers would be in half of Asia and how much time wouuld it take to make the shields etc etc. The thing is we have no clue to believe they were tinned other than that they have the same colour...I do't rule it out-as I was the first who mentioned the idea here- but all silver shields may have been possible after all. There are lost works from ancient writers that might shed some light to all those questions,but for the moment I don't think I can support the one or the other option.
Khaire
Giannis

[Hypaspist]

Giannis , Thank you for the Welcome

I Am Interested in the actual appearence and Manufacture of Ancient Arms and Amour , maybe more than is healthy . I have always wondered as a Master Craftsman Myself , as to the nature of Things mentioned in Ancient Sources, and how they where really made , and used .Now I have some Time I want to recreate as much as possible accurate reproductions of some of these Arms and Armour . Using techniques that where known in the period ,so in some ways I am asking questions to also Gain some knowledge and feedback on ideas I have formed on the Construction of these Articles . Here in This Forum there seems to be many Quite well Read members , and it is very Interesting to hear the thoughts and Reflections they express .
I will Start a new Topic on Forum this Afternoon on the Sarrisa , and what is Actually Known , I bought two 16th century Pikes at about 15 feet Long and was Surprised who easy they handled ..>> Hummmm ..

Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-

Anyway,I was saying that the actual thickness of the bronze covering was not 1 mm but 0.5mm or less.

...that is interesting, Giannis. I don't doubt that thickness varied from shield to shield, and that being beaten onto the shield, the thickness varied even on a single shield.
The figure I gave came from a report by Dr Jeronimides on the Vatican shield, the only relatively intact battle-Aspis ( as opposed to many votive ones from Olympia, where the fittings were fastened direct to the back of the thin bronze 'face'). He reports "...the shape is nearly circular, 82x81.5 cm. The thickness of the bronze cover is 1mm or less in parts. There is no sign of weapon damage.."
What is your source for a figure of 0.5 mm ? Reports of other shields?

[Paralus]

The army is occasionally attested as having a small city of followers. This will have included the usual retinue which attaches itself to all armies. It will also have included armourers. The sources rarely ever bother themselves with such boring minutiae. Thucydides does, though, provide the insight with his description of the Sicilian expedition and Xenophon's recount of Cyrus' wagons, cooks, et al.

Self-evidently, broken and rusted weapons will have had to be relaced. Broken shields too. Originally this will have been strictly on an "as needs" basis - money being in short supply. Later, with money being no issue (other than what to spend it on), a re-armament of his force is not out of the question at all. Bright, shiny new weaponry/armour for a bunch of blokes being asked to essentially forget their homeland might be seen as a treat - to a soldier anyway.

I'm not at all certain about silver as armour. Perhaps tinned might be the better idea. Anyone care to work out how much weight is in three thousand or more shields with a half ml of silver plating? I certainly can't afford it.

Wonder if any of the old buggers was preparing to hock his shield at Opis to pay his debts? A whole new view of the Alexandrian largesse.

It is unlikely in the extreme that Alexander, at a symposium attended by the recently conquered barbaroi …where did that come from? There are no ‘barbarians’ mentioned in the sources, nor Greeks either, only Macedonians attending a Macedonian religious festival…

Plutarch, Alex. 50.9:

Thereupon clietus, who had already drunk too much and was rough and hot tempered by nature, became angrier than ever and shouted that it was not right for Macedonians to be insulted in the presence of barbarians and enemies, even if they had met with misfortune, for they were better men than those who were laughing at them.

Ian Scott-Kilvert would be to balme for this translation...

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus/Michael wrote:-

Anyone care to work out how much weight is in three thousand or more shields with a half ml of silver plating? I certainly can't afford it.

...please read my post on the previous page, which gives a detailed account of both the silver required for solid silver facings, and the ease with which Alexander could afford it.........

Quote:
Thereupon clietus, who had already drunk too much and was rough and hot tempered by nature, became angrier than ever and shouted that it was not right for Macedonians to be insulted in the presence of barbarians and enemies, even if they had met with misfortune, for they were better men than those who were laughing at them.

Quite right. Plutarch's account ( which is the most detailed extant) has Greeks present (Alexander speaks to some) and from the quote may be read to imply some Persians were present too, though in that case apparently Cleitus believes these Persians can understand Greek/Macedonian, or else he refers here too, to Greeks ( mind you, he was supposedly drunk.....)
None of which changes the fact that Plutarch has the murder weapon as a Dory..... wink: