tinned segmentata - any evidence?

[Flavius Promotus]

The question of whether the Romans actually tinned segmentatae popped up already several times - but I have to ask it again, sorry boys! :oops:

Allegedly, there is evidence for tinning on some of the Kalkriese plates. Does anybody have references for this?

The next question probably belongs into 'reenactment and reconstruction', but I did not want to start two new threads at the same time:

whoever has got a tinned segmentata, what have been your long-term experiences? Does the tin layer rub off, and if yes, where? How effectively does the tinning keep rust away?

Thank you!
Florian

[Marcus Mummius]

On a surface were the tinlayer is intact there will be no rusting at all. But on places where the tinning is damaged rust will form. A friend of mine has a silvered Simkins Gallic H helmet and the silvering has worn away on a small patch on the browguard and that part has already started rusting.

I'm planning to go to a metal plater to have a hamata tinned but I have no idea if they would be able to do it or want to do it at all...

Vale,

[Hibernicus]

Tinned seg plate from Carnutum

what have been your long-term experiences?

So far so good.

Does the tin layer rub off, and if yes, where?

No.. or maybe not yet... rubbing in all the usual places, but no rubbing down to bare steel.

How effectively does the tinning keep rust away?

Wonderfully!

BTW, I recommend hot dipping. [/b]

[Tarbicus]

Hib, do you have or know of any instructions for hot dipping?

[A_Volpe]

Yeah, I'd like to hear more about hot-dipping, I'm looking to try tinning parts for our Signa, and I'm uneasy about the wipe-on wipe-off technique, essepcially with small bits like rivets and disks.

[Marcus Mummius]

I wonder if I could hot dip a hamata... Would this totaly mess up the shirt? How should one approach such a project?

Vale,

[Tarbicus]

Actually, Wiki has a bit about... Hmmmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinning
More: http://www.geocities.com/madisontin/Tinplate.html
And got down to Mandar Sunthankar's post: http://www.finishing.com/1600-1799/1797.shtml

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Using a hot diping proces to tin a hamata or a segmentata will be very dificult.

You need a very big recipent metallic and put a lot (some kilos...) of tin and then get hot until the tin melts. Then you have to put the metal very clean (even washed with acids) with a tongs or something similar into the molten tin and wait a moment: the iron needs to get the same temperture as the molten tin. If you don't wait, the tin could gets out.

Then you have to get out the iron very slowly to let the excess of tin to flow. If not, probably you'll have a veri thick and irregular coating. Another possibility is to get a thick cloth or similar and with the tin still hot, clean the exces. BUT THE METAL WILL BE VERY HOT SO IT'S EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

Really, i think that kind of tinnig only could be made for little pieces (belt pieces, etc.)

For helmets and armour, probably will be best to use the tinnig paste and a torch or an oven... (I think there are a tutorial in RAT about tinning a helmet in a kitchen oven...)

[Marcus Mummius]

That's good info, Cesar, thanks!

How would you suggest tinning a hamata? I think doing it in an oven isn't an option here...

Vale,

[martijn.wijnhoven]

How would you suggest tinning a hamata?

To my knowledge mail was never tinned. I guess you would like to give it this treatment to prevent oxidation. If your hamata suffers from rust, you can clean it as described by Ffoulkes in his book The armourer and his Craft. On page 79-80 he mentions various historical sources that refer to the cleaning of mail.

1296. 23-24 Edw. I
Itm. xx s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura comitis.

This refers to leather sacks used either for keeping the armour in or for cleaning it by shaking it with sand and vinegar.

1344. Iventory of Dover Castle
i barrele pro armaturis rollandis.

The barrel was here used in the same way. The mail was placed inside with sand and vinegar and rolled and shaken. The same method is still practised in some districts for cleaning barrels for cider or ale. Chains are placed in the barrel with sand to obtain the same result. On Plate XV a barrel is shown on the extreme left of the picture with a mail shirt hanging over the edge.

1364. Inventory of the donjon of Vostieza.
i barellum ad forbiendum malliam.

1369. Prologue, Canterbury Tales, Chaucer.
Of fustyan he wered a gipoun
Alle sysmoterud with his haburgeoun.

This extract shows clearly the need for the barrel and sand. The mail had evidently rusted with rain and perspiration, and left stains and marks on the quilted undergarment. We find the term ´rokked´ used in the poem of Syr Gawayn, which means cleaned by rolling.

1372. Froissart uses the expression
a rouler leurs cottes de fer.

1417 Inventory of Winchester College
i barelle pro loricis purgandis.

1423 Roll of Excecutors of Henry Bowet, Archbishop of York, Oct. 20.
j barelle cum suis pertinentiis ad purgandos loricas et alia arma de mayle

1467. Howard Household Book (Dom. Expenses in England, 416)
9d. to an armerer at Pawles Cheyne for an harneys barelle.

1513. Earl of Northumberland´s Equipage
a poammyshe
Eight yards of white blaunkett for trussing of my Lord´s harnes in.

The pumice was for cleaning of the rust and the blanket was used for packing the armour when in store or on a journey.

Best wishes,

Martijn

[Marcus Mummius]

If your hamata suffers from rust, you can clean it as described by Ffoulkes in his book The armourer and his Craft. On page 79-80 he mentions various historical sources that refer to the cleaning of mail.

I agree. Active oxidation (the powdery orange stuff) can be cleaned this way very easily. But what if the iron has a dark brown hue to it? I already tried rolling in sand (both in a bag and in a plastic barrel) it didn't help.... Better just live with it being a bit brown?

I am wondering if I'd have a better result if I put some vineagar into the sand. Would the acetic acid eat away the brown tinge? But wouldn't it be necessary to rinse it with water afterwards? Otherwise the acetic acid might keep eating away the hamata... And if you rinse it with water you risk that it start's to rust again I don't feel like buying a couple of liters of ethanol to rinse the mail...

I was sure I read something about tinned roman mail somewhere, but it appears you're right. Tinned mail is known from mediaval and later times but I can find no evidence for Roman times. Actually that's good news, it saves me the effort and money to have it tinned

Vale,

[Flavius Promotus]

I have successfully overcome my natural lazyness and have scanned Mike Bishop's 'Lorica Segmentata'. He writes on page 80 that only one (sic!) piece of tinned segmentata has been found so far!
The piece is part of an upper shoulderguard and was found at Xanten.

Reference:
Schalles, H.-J. & C. Schreiter, 1993, Geschichte aus dem Kies. Neue Funde aus dem Alten Rhein bei Xanten, in: Xantener Berichte 3, Köln, p. 50.

The fragment is depicted in the lorica segmentata catalogue by M.D. Thomas (2003), p. 132, Nr. 123. Interestingly, Thomas does not mention the tinning.
The sketch looks as if only a narrow strip of the tin surface is left (from a rivet in the middle to the lower edge). The rest has been corroded away.

This is the only one fragment out of 129 with traces of a tin layer! Does that mean that tinning lorica plates was something extremely rare? Or did it just happen not too often and some of the known fragments had once been tinned but the rust destroyed all evidence?

Hibernicus, do you have any references for the tinned girdle hoop from Carnuntum you mentioned? I could not find the Carnuntum armour fragments in Thomas's catalogue, but some are depicted in Bishop&Coulston, 2006.
(maybe they are in the catalogue but I've been too stupid to find them...)

Florian

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello

I think the best method to avoid rust in an hamata is to blackening/ blueing it.

It means to get the surface of the iron to form a black or blue oxid (magnetite, i think...). Traditionally, there are two ways to make it:

-Quimic tractament.
-Put the iron red hot and then make a immersion in oil. THAT?S DANGEROUS! A cloud of toxic vapor will made with the immersion.

The thickness of the black surface, the utilization and the weather makes a lot of diferences in the util life of that coating. But i think it will remains some years.

And it's very efective against oxid. My pugio sheat is blackened anf dont get any rust.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But what kind of oil precisely did you use Cesar? Would toxic fumes be a real issue for the Romans? What oil would they have used if they were to use this method to protect their metal? Olive oil? Would this have caused toxic vapours to form?

Perhaps tinning is a safer alternative, and also allow for the 'Gleaming armour' so favoured by the ancients?
What evidence is there for the use of oils as a rust proofing agent?
I ask you, what proof? hock: hock: hock: :? The mind boggles....

ps. what was the other way?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The other way it's with quimics products. Roman have them, so it's another possibility.

The fumes produced by oils are toxic. But you only have to avoid the direct respiration of that and do it in a open area!

The use of such treatament it's very know by romans as shows the minerallogic analisys of ancient armours and weapons showing surfaces with magnetite (an iron oxid). In adition, it's present and visible in a lot of roman iron tools, that in other way have been disintegrated.

I think one of the reasons of the lack of more segmentata plates (and other stuff) is that there have been disintegrated by oxydation. A 1-2 mm iron plate in the ground have a life very short. Near where I live there are the scenario of the Battle of Ebro, (Spanish Civil War), and a lot of the iron parts of the weapons, bombs and ammo are extremely bad corroded, and "only" have 70 years.

Turning to the tining discusion, i think it's very laborious and dificult to get a tinned hamata. And think that a excess of tin causes the lack of mobility of the rings!!!